Avoiding anaerobic areas in deeper substrate

GR1KTR

GR1KTR

Aspiring Aquascaper
I plan to have some deeper areas (10cm approx.) of substrate. I plan to use ADA Amazonia New. I see that some use a coarser material underneath to avoid anaerobic areas developing. Despite my searching I've come up a bit stumped as to what is best to use. I'm also afraid that if I make the wrong choice, my ADA soil will end up at the bottom, with the coarser material on top.

Anyone able to point me in the right direction?
 
GR1KTR said:
I plan to have some deeper areas (10cm approx.) of substrate. I plan to use ADA Amazonia New. I see that some use a coarser material underneath to avoid anaerobic areas developing. Despite my searching I've come up a bit stumped as to what is best to use. I'm also afraid that if I make the wrong choice, my ADA soil will end up at the bottom, with the coarser material on top.

Anyone able to point me in the right direction?
Click to expand...

Hi Glenn, I use Gravel On deeper areas For the same reason ;) For the deeper rooting plants add some root tabs to gravel layer:) Will post a pic Better than words sometimes :D Regards Roy
 
One pic, Hope it Helps Mate ,(y)
007.JPG
PS on RH side Will be adding a little more Substrate to give more height that side that why it looks low now:eek: Regards Roy
 
I can see a finer layer of substrate below, regular gravel on top and some kind of soil above? Will this stop anaerobic areas in my tank?
 
H
GR1KTR said:
I can see a finer layer of substrate below, regular gravel on top and some kind of soil above? Will this stop anaerobic areas in my tank?
Click to expand...
Hi Glenn, Works for me have done this in other tanks before Never had a problem :D Regards Roy
 
GR1KTR
Only 10cm the shallowest part of my 75cm tank is 11cm+ and the deepest top of the mound could easily be 15cm+

I do have a UGF and all my rooted plants are growing like crazy.

I have never done a deep vac as it would be impossible as it is fully planted.

Once every three months (first week of a new season) I feed all the rooted plants with Seachem Fert tabs.

Keith:):)
 
keithgh said:
GR1KTR
Only 10cm the shallowest part of my 75cm tank is 11cm+ and the deepest top of the mound could easily be 15cm+

I do have a UGF and all my rooted plants are growing like crazy.

I have never done a deep vac as it would be impossible as it is fully planted.

Once every three months (first week of a new season) I feed all the rooted plants with Seachem Fert tabs.

Keith:):)
Click to expand...

100% agree with this.

my 40gallons [90x40x40] tank also with diy UGF covered by 2 to 3mm pebbles 2inches front about 3inches back
top with black soil about 2"front and 3" back and was able to make a forest out of it.

sample of my scape both were done in 2011
MainPhoto.jpg

RaysofHope2012.jpg
 
mr_ED

You must be like me we have not read the books on "Why plants will not grow on UGF."

or the latest one "UGF are useless it kills plants and fish."

Keith:):)
 
What about if I wanted to push it out to 15-20cm? Would I have a problem then or does your experience say otherwise?
 
hi keith,........not read any books nor write up about UGF. i learned about UGF being used in planted tank
because it was introduce in the local forum by planted tank hobbyist who are many years ahead of me.
ours is diy using 1/2 pvc water pipe. slit it with a deep of about half an inch and with a space of about an 1/2 or an inch
every slit. what we do to avoid clogging we cover it with 2 to 3mm pebbles. btw, we as soon as it is ready we assemble the
pvc with slits face down the glass bottom. i hope i can find pics of what i am talking here. one good result is crystal clear
water as can be seen in my sample scape.

UGF being sold in the pet shops are quite different from pvc UGF. but 2years ago, i heard and later saw almost same
was being marketed because one of our co-hobbyist introduce our diy ufg in one of the asia planted tank forum.


i never heard about "Why plants will not grow on UGF." or "UGF are useless it kills plants and fish." from local planted tank
hobbyist about it.............what i know is that UGF will tend to compact the substrate - the reason we cover it by pebbles to
slow down or delay any subs compaction. but this compaction was not experience by me. if the write or studies made the
author was true or not....how i was able to grow plants. my iaplc entry tank rank no.147. i entered the same photo in AGA
and this was the comments:

Really lush aquascape. The rock work is well done, although, I'm wishing some of the rocks on the right side were still exposed. Overall, very nice job!
Kris Weinhold​
​
I liked seeing the progression of your tank as it matured. Although the tank is beautiful, some additional shaping of the background and addition of some type of hardscape on the right side will make this good tank ever better. Great job!​
Bailin Shaw​
​
 
I hate to be the one to bust up the theme here..BUT....

it is not necessary to provide any type of flow or variation in substrate sizes through the substrate. It is based upon the same reasoning as those under gravel heaters, which are a waste of money.

Plant roots oxygenate the substrate. If you have plants growing there shouldn't be a problem. this is why often times you will not find a planted tank that smells of sulfur, yet an unplanted one that is old can give off that smell if the substrate is disturbed. The sulfur smell is the sign of anaerobic regions, my planted tanks do not get that and have had deep substrates.

case in point:

attachment.php


UGFs are fine and there aren't problems with them, but also they are not necessary. If you really must have the gradient you can use pumice or small lava stones from a gardening supply store after rinsing them thoroughly. They will mix with the other substrate and rise to the top. I used the power sand once and was constantly annoyed by it. If you do any replanting or moving of plants it will end up on top.
 
One additional comment, our tanks are small submerged systems. They do not need drainage or ground water movement like an ecosystem would. We often times get confused or over complicate things by trying to entirely replicate a natural system. We forget our tanks are NOT natural no matter how much of nature they remind us.
 
Thanks Shawn. This comes a relief.. there seems to be a fair amount of misinformation out there on this topic.
 
mr_ED said:
100% agree with this.

my 40gallons [90x40x40] tank also with diy UGF covered by 2 to 3mm pebbles 2inches front about 3inches back
top with black soil about 2"front and 3" back and was able to make a forest out of it.

sample of my scape both were done in 2011
MainPhoto.jpg

RaysofHope2012.jpg
Click to expand...


Outstanding...

I grew plants in a very similar way - totally low-energy though - nearly 30 years ago when I first took up the hobby as a child. I used soil substrate over interlocking undergravel filter plates (similar to these http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/a...tank-filter-for-aquariums-23-x-12-uf-16p.html) powered by large powerheads. The soil - a layer about 40mm thick - was sandwiched between 2mm grade plastic mesh, which held it firmly in place., whilst allowing root penetration. At the time - as probably now still - it was definitely regarded as a no no if you wanted to grow plants successfully.

I can only speculate why it worked so well...but I've an inkling the success was largely to do with vastly increased flow and distribution over pant roots perhaps similar to the way hydroponics works. After a while there were definitely a lot of fibrous roots penetrating the void below the soil. Incidentally, it was the only means of filtration in a very well stocked and extremely healthy tank, which ran for years with very few water changes and without any trouble whatsoever.

Also I think the under-soil flow and distribution of O2 would most likely have created another oxidised microzone in addition to the one at the soil surface. Just to put that in perspective, the oxidized microzone is the very thin highly aerobic surface layer of soil that interfaces with the water column. It is of huge importance in a soil substrate tank since it supports the hive of microbial activity needed to neutralise toxic substances and unlock nutrients. This combined with the associated increase in flow and distribution also probably helped to release more CO2 from the increased decomposition of organic matter in the soil.
 
Anyway back to the original question, UG filters aside, the obvious solution has already been mentioned...a layer of coarse inert silica gravel underneath. I've done the same in the past but I place the gravel in filter media bags to prevent it mixing with the soil. It's also handy for building up modular topography when creating aquascapes. They've been christened haggis for obvious reasons...

Soillayerwithmoundinlay_zps985e52ab.jpg
 
I think I'm right on the edge of needing 'haggis' for this one. I've used Aquasoil only to build up the RHS for now. At it's deepest the soil is 12cm, which I've been told won't lead to any major problems. Here's a pic:

tankfts2_zpse1458f3e.jpg


I hope that it's not a waste of Aquasoil..
 
Glenn, this is what I have done. I don't bother with anything under the aquasoil. It doesn't compact much and maintains so not much of a loss of flow through the substrate. I've not had issues with it. Ironically, I've had anaerobic substrate long before I ever got into planted tanks with standard aquarium gravel. No UGF and no plants combined with a lack of maintenance.

My substrate in my 30c is even taller this time, same for my 90p and I'm not concerned.
 
Glen

In any aquarium any thing is possible but by playing it safe like you have done there is less chance of having unforeseen major concerns.

Keith:):)
 
Troi said:
Outstanding...

I grew plants in a very similar way - totally low-energy though - nearly 30 years ago when I first took up the hobby as a child. I used soil substrate over interlocking undergravel filter plates (similar to these http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/a...tank-filter-for-aquariums-23-x-12-uf-16p.html) powered by large powerheads. The soil - a layer about 40mm thick - was sandwiched between 2mm grade plastic mesh, which held it firmly in place., whilst allowing root penetration. At the time - as probably now still - it was definitely regarded as a no no if you wanted to grow plants successfully.

I can only speculate why it worked so well...but I've an inkling the success was largely to do with vastly increased flow and distribution over pant roots perhaps similar to the way hydroponics works. After a while there were definitely a lot of fibrous roots penetrating the void below the soil. Incidentally, it was the only means of filtration in a very well stocked and extremely healthy tank, which ran for years with very few water changes and without any trouble whatsoever.

Also I think the under-soil flow and distribution of O2 would most likely have created another oxidised microzone in addition to the one at the soil surface. Just to put that in perspective, the oxidized microzone is the very thin highly aerobic surface layer of soil that interfaces with the water column. It is of huge importance in a soil substrate tank since it supports the hive of microbial activity needed to neutralise toxic substances and unlock nutrients. This combined with the associated increase in flow and distribution also probably helped to release more CO2 from the increased decomposition of organic matter in the soil.
Click to expand...

hi Troi, thank you for appreciating my posted scape sa sample.
your link used ugf plates which according to my fellow local hobbyist who are many years ahead of me in this hobby,
ugf plates when use in a planted tank will get easily clog.

i am not really an expert in this hobby. for three years,.....i scape and plant only.
no matter how many times i read your post here, i will never understand it.
same with your personal thread [now a sticky]. honestly that's the truth.
still so many things to learn about science.

i have one simple question about the thread topic "avoiding anaerobic areas"
is "anaerobic " good or bad in a planted tank? any answer please...say it in layman or simple english:)

anyone please,.......thank you in advance.
 
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