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how many can live in ?

Discussion in 'Fish' started by Ohly, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Ohly

    Ohly Aspiring Aquascaper

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    hi,

    soon i'm gonna start a planted/aquascaped tank of 11gallons .

    and i want to know, how many fish can i put in the tank, knowing many plant will oxygen the water etc !?

    i also want to have 2 to 3 species into the tank, 1 or 2 a bit bigger fish that would be the ''star'' of the scape.. and two groups of 3 or more fish that will school/ shoal and would be a bit smaller..

    and i know i will put some shrimp into the tank!

    thanks

    Ohly
     
  2. ghostmonk

    ghostmonk Aspiring Aquascaper

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    how "big"? If I keep fish like ember tetra or galaxy rasbora, I would not hesitate to put upto 20-25 fish in a 11g tank. But the tank needs to be cycled, have lots of plants and filtration setup for twice the tank capacity (my comfort zone). I have over 150 fish currently swimming in a 100g tank. 1 month of cycling, then big bang. All 150 fish go in together in less than 15 mins....zero mortality. To give an idea, I have 6 different kinds of tetra, and 3 different types of rasbora in the mix.
     
  3. Ohly

    Ohly Aspiring Aquascaper

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    in fact, i want as many as possible,
    looking awesome to have 25 fish!

    how big? : little but as i said, i would like one or two more stunning fish

    about the filtration, it would probably be a Eheim Classic 2213 , so i'm ''okay'' with your comfort zone, wich i understand the purpose !
     
  4. Ohly

    Ohly Aspiring Aquascaper

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    i think i will speed up the cycling using a bit of water from a water change of my girlfriend's tank and also with a bit of the used biomax of her filter.. would you recommend doing this ?
     
  5. keithgh

    keithgh Moderator Staff Member

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    http://www.aqadvisor.com/

    Ohly

    I suggest you take a few steps back and start doing a lot of research first a 11g tank is very small tank.

    There is a massive difference between "Want" and "Can have"

    Cycling is not as easy as that but that is a long way off, first you must decide what you can have in that tank and start by doing a lot of research

    One word of warning beware of what you read on many of the chat type of forums or the WWW, many LFS are just interested in selling you what every you want and nothing else.

    Keith:):)
     
  6. Ohly

    Ohly Aspiring Aquascaper

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    well very small tank when you got 150g beside to compare ..

    but thanks for the link,

    i'm aware that it is a lot of care, but this tank is meant to learn, sure i will take the time with at my regional aquascape store to talk about my project and what plant to get and aswell take the time to cycle it, the thing is, i dont want to start with a 55g because i'm still at my dad home for at least 6 months and i dont want to manage the moving a big tank... and its cheaper
     
  7. Ohly

    Ohly Aspiring Aquascaper

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    the tank size is : 40cm long X 30cm large X 35cm High

    at first sight its really un-usual but when you take a closer look, it have a great potencial for a scape, by building it this size, i wanted a small tank for my first planted tank, but also wanted something that will allow high plants.

    compared to the usual size for a 10g it looks somwhat bigger! sure mine is closer to 11g
     
  8. ghostmonk

    ghostmonk Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Ohly....I know you are excited but slow and steady will pay it off and will make it a more enjoyable experience (seeing you tank evolve over a long time). As such, first word of caution is not to try to speed up anything. Sure you can use some mature filter media from another tank, but not with the intent to speed up rather with the intent to move in some bacteria for "free". Remember some of the bacteria may die off by the time there is nitrates and nitrites produced in the tank for them to feed, so you will have to allow them to 1) re-establish & 2) bring down the nitrates and nitrites already produced.

    Also, just because I have put in all my fish together, does not mean you should do so. I have been learning fish keeping for about 8 years now and have been confident about trying this only in the last 2-3 years, started putting in 20 fish at a time, then 50, then 80... If you are just beginning, start with a few and slowly add a few more later. See how things work out and then adjust accordingly.

    Also try to get all fish from one seller and investigate them on quality. I have had situations where I killed a healthy bunch of fish with a infected bunch from a different seller, especially since I did not have a quarantine facility. Now I get all my fish from a seller about 1500 miles from my home than from any local sellers because over time, I have learned to trust them on their quality. I have to pay a premium on shipping but all worth when I can order and get 150-200 fish overnight and see them in my tank in less than 30 hours from placing the order. So do your home work, try out sellers and stick to them who provide best fish in your area.

    So overall going slow will be most prudent. But if your question is "how many", I would be comfortable to up to 20-25 small fish in a 11g.
     
    Ohly likes this.
  9. Ohly

    Ohly Aspiring Aquascaper

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    thanks a lot,

    you seem to have a lot of experience,

    i know i should be patient and i will!

    about the fish, i finaly end up with the galaxy rasbora that you told earlier, it seems to be the kind of fish for this tank.

    in the other hand, getting into the cycling subject, i know the basic about cycling, its quite obvious, but i want to know, when cycling a tank, do i let the tank cycling for a given period of time, or is there a way to know when the tank is cycled?
    i'm thinking of water analysis at the LFS but i've never done that in my past tank

    thanks for all!

    Ohly
     
  10. ghostmonk

    ghostmonk Aspiring Aquascaper

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    There are ways to do find out if cycling is done.

    1. Produce some ammonia in tank for the bacteria to eat on. Options
    a. put in a couple of fish and feed them a little bit. Their waste will produce the ammonia required
    b. fishless cycling. Add ammonia (a drop or 2) to the tank water. House cleaning ammonia in Walmart is fine. This will actually start the process faster.

    2. Add bacteria (mature filter media or cultured bacteria from LFS)

    Now just wait and test for ammonia, then nitrites and then nitrates.
    - Initially you should only detect ammonia. If you went (a) it should be zero first, then spike up, and then go down. If you did (b), you will get a high reading right at the beginning. Then it should either stay at that level or go down steadily after a couple of days
    - In a couple of days you will start detecting nitrites and nitrates. Both will start from zero and spike up. This means cycling has started
    - Finally both ammonia and nitrites will be zero but nitrates will be available. Tank is cycled now, and you can add fish at this point.

    Easy way is to add a few starter fish, existing filter media from another tank, wait for about 2 weeks and test water from LFS to detect no ammonia and nitrite. Then add other fish.
    My preferred way is fishless and testing my water parameters myself. But you have to buy your testing kit. Depends on if you want to be that involved or not.
     
    keithgh and greenfinger 2 like this.
  11. Ohly

    Ohly Aspiring Aquascaper

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    i think i will go for the a, i think i will put one goldfish, they are strong, in my experience, goldfish are real pig! and ..

    ooh .. not not a good idea , if he start eating the plants ... i'll se when i'll get there.. for now the project is in slow-mode ... Job related issue.. no In of money, no out on fish...

    thanks for everything, its nice to get advice from experienced people !

    and i will eventualy start a Journal when i'll definitively start the project

    thanks!

    Ohly
     
  12. ghostmonk

    ghostmonk Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Start with a couple of danios....safe bet

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  13. keithgh

    keithgh Moderator Staff Member

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    Ohly

    Here is a bit more info for you.

    I have collected this over the years doing Forum work.

    At the moment I am a Advisor on an Aust forum

    Only been playing around with fish tanks about 45 years now and interested for close to 70 years.

    Keith:):)



    NEW TANK SYNDROME" For a lot of people, their fish keeping experience starts like this:
    They buy a tank, a stand, a filter, a hood, lights, selection of plants, rocks, diver with genuine bubbles... They add water (which they have carefully de-chlorinated and got up to temperature). And then they make their first (and biggest) mistake: they buy some fish. This might be a week later, but apart from checking the tank isn't leaking and all the gizmos are working, leaving the tank to stand for a week doesn't accomplish much.
    The problem is ammonia: Fish pee ammonia. Not only that, but their poop also breaks down to ammonia. So before long, your new fish are swimming about in a toxic pool of ammonia.
    Tragically, ammonia is deadly poisonous to fish. It inhibits their breathing, rather as carbon monoxide does in humans, and they slowly start to suffocate. Don't believe anyone who says there's a "safe" level of ammonia for fish - I'm sure there's a safe level of carbon monoxide, but I'm not going to rent a house that has it!


    Beneficial Bacteria This is where your bacteria come in: fortunately, certain types of bacteria can break down ammonia into a less toxic substance called nitrite (that's with an 'I' - note the spelling, it's important) aka NO2-. After a few days, this "ammonia-eating" bacteria start to grow in your tank, particularly your filter and gravel, and drop your ammonia levels to zero. Phew!
    But your fish aren't home and dry: nitrite is less toxic than ammonia, but is still toxic and can still kill fish. Thankfully, another sort of bacteria starts to grow in your filter and gravel (albeit a little more slowly than the "ammonia eating" bacteria). This beneficial bacteria breaks down nitrite (NO2-) and turns it into nitrate (NO3+) - note the 'a'. Nitrate is only harmful in quite high levels, which can be controlled by regular partial water changes, and is useful to aquatic plants as a fertiliser.
    This process is called the Nitrogen Cycle, and in fish-keepers jargon, a tank where the bacteria are happily munching on ammonia and nitrite is said to be "cycled". In summary:
    Fish waste --> ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate, which plants use to grow.
    The beneficial bacteria are what make your tank safe for fish. Although present in the water, they are largely found in the gravel or sand in the bottom of your tank and in the filter. As well as ammonia, they require a good source of oxygenated water to grow.


    How to "Cycle" Your New Tank Traditionally, the way of getting around this problem of establishing the beneficial bacteria is to put just a couple of really tough fish in your new tank and wait 8 weeks before adding a few more fish.
    Unfortunately, even if the fish survive (which is a pretty big "if”) they have to endure weeks and weeks of first ammonia poisoning and then nitrite poisoning. They may survive, but they may never enjoy good health or live as long as they should and I personally feel it's a welfare issue.
    But there is a better way: Fishless Cycling.
    The advantage to Fishless Cycling is that it effectively grows your bacteria before any fish are damaged. By the time your ammonia and nitrite readings are zero you'll have plenty of beneficial bacteria to break down the waste from as many fish as you want in your tank and can fit.
    This is normally done with PURE AMMONIA, which is hard to fine in AUS. Another way is to daily FEED the fish less tank with a small amount of food & use a bio product like "Cycle"


    Can a Cycled Tank Un-Cycle Again? Even in an established tank you can get ammonia or nitrite "spikes", usually because something has killed off your beneficial bacteria. This could be for several reasons:
    1. You forgot to dechlorination your water when you did a water change. Chlorine kills bacteria!
    2. You over-cleaned your tank, particularly the filter media and gravel, particularly is you didn't dechlorination your water and particularly if the gravel or filter were out of the water a long time.
    3. Some filter companies recommend you change the filter media every month (Well they would say that, wouldn't they???). Not only is this an expensive waste of time quite often (filter sponges usually just need a rinse in some old tank water), you could be removing the beneficial bacteria. If you want to replace a filter insert, leave the sponge or floss in the tank for a week or so beforehand.
    4. A power-outage stopped your filter or pump from working for a couple of hours (bacteria need oxygenated water to survive).
    5. You over-loaded the bacteria in your tank's ability to break down the fish waste, for instance by suddenly over-stocking your tank, particularly with messy fish.
    6. A tub of food has fallen into the tank and gone bad, thus overloading the beneficial bacteria’s ability to cope.
    How to Save the Day (and the Fish) with an Un-Cycled Tank
    OK, so you didn't do Fishless Cycling or you did scrub out your matured tank and now your fish are dying and nothings breaking down that ammonia and nitrite. What do you do now?
    Here's what I do to give my fish the best chance: 1. Immediately do a 10-15% water change with perchlorinated water and continue to do this at least once daily until your tank is cycling (i.e. ammonia and nitrite are at zero).
    2. Test the water daily for ammonia and nitrite until the values are holding at zero for several days running. If levels are high, do an immediate, extra water change.
    3. If at all possible, get some matured filter media and/or gravel from a matured tank and put it in your tank, suspended in an old stocking. This will hopefully impregnate your new tank with the beneficial bacteria. One lady successfully used floss from a relative’s fishpond to colonise her new tank! (You have to be careful that what you use is clean and free from pathogens, of course).
    4. Keep good aeration in the tank both to help the fish a little and to oxygenate those beneficial bacteria.
    5. Avoid using medications, if at all possible, as many medications kill off beneficial bacteria. Your fish may well get ick, fungus or other infections due to the stress of the ammonia and nitrite but the priority is to get that water quality as good as possible.
    6. If you have delicate fish in the tank, such as Plecos, Corys or other bottom dwellers, tetras, pencil fish etc. try to re-home them temporarily, such as asking the Local Fish Shop to look after them until your tank is cycled (after all, chances are that they got you in this mess in the first place).
    7. Live plants can directly use ammonia, so if you can, put some cheap aquatic plants in the tank, such as elodea or giant Valls
    8. Don't feed your fish at all if your ammonia readings are high, and only feed bare minimum rations every other day, until the tank cycles. This will cut down on the ammonia the fish produce. Since fish are cold-blooded creatures and don't need the calories of a mammal they can go several days without food anyway, and the occasional fast is good for them. Your fish may not be very hungry anyway so do be careful not to feed more than the fish can eat and clean up uneaten food immediately, before it rots and produces even more ammonia.
    9. Only clean the gravel superficially, of obvious dirt and uneaten food. You want the bacteria to colonise it and actually start to grow. Also, don't swap out your filter at this point - if it gets blocked, just clean it enough to unblock it, in used tank water.
     
    chan011, ghostmonk and greenfinger 2 like this.
  14. Ohly

    Ohly Aspiring Aquascaper

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    WOW a lot of good info, ! it somebody should make a sticky with this !
     

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