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Culprit's 20 Long Scape

Discussion in 'Aquascaping Journals' started by Culprit3, Oct 14, 2017.

  1. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Moderator Staff Member

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    the old variant of E. tennelus is tall. It is sold as E. tennelus "green". It is actually a plant by a different name entirely. Be sure not to get that one. The one I am referring to is available in tissue culture from AFA as well. Get that one. It will around the same height as the blyxxa but has a more dispersed look. Under higher light it grows shorter and gets bronzing. Neat little plant loved by Amano.

    Honestly, I'm not a fan of DSM. The conversion process is a PITA. You get melt and have other issues to deal with. If you can buy enough to plant densely and flood from the beginning do it. If you insist on a DSM then You could mix in the E. tennelus. You could skip it altogether if you are going to do stems behind the blyxxa. The hairgrass alone would be enough of a transition.

    Dry starting moss isn't too difficult. Some people chop it up and mix it in with a bit of yogurt (yes that isn't a typo) and "paint" it onto the rocks. That has to stink. I'd just chop it up and rub it onto the rocks where you want it. Fissidens and riccardia are good options here.

    A DSM method of use is in the photo attached. If this was me I'd skip the DSM. I haven't done a DSM since I first started. Its really not enough of an advantage for me to justify doing. The last time I did one was to get a carpet grown in so I could preserve a steep slope in the substrate. Even then, with better hardscaping techniques it isn't necessary.

    When professionals transport scapes they drain all the water and then stuff the open space with packing material to keep things from shifting. It should hold the stones in place. Water shifting around can move the substrate so I would avoid that by ensuring its drained all the way. Maybe leave a little patch of open area that goes to the bottom you can siphon from when draining.
     

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  2. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Got it. So from AFA I'll order rotala sunrise, blyxxa and E. Tennelus in tissue culture. From my LFS I'll get monte carlo, dwarf hairgrass, and blyxxa if they have it. If they can't order it in I'll order it from somewhere else.

    I have the money to buy enough this time! You don't think I'll have a really hard time with the dhg and the monte carlo? I'm guessing with the moss if I skipped the dsm I will just glue it on? I think I like the fissidens the best. I'm thinking if I skip the dry start I might go ahead and set it up at her house. It would take away the transporting aspect which is very big. When I first set it up I'll have CO2 blasting for the tissue cultured plants, I'll be doing 50% water changes every day for the first week, second week 50% water changes every other day, third week two 50% water changes, fourth week start very lean EI regime and 50% once a week. That sound right?

    For plants, its a large area there behind the main rock that is empty. Would you suggest buying the rotala sunrise as bunches or as tissue culture? This is the hard part about ordering online, I can't see just how much I'm getting. Monte carlo probably three tissue culture cups? I'll plant in small bunches instead of tiny individual plantlets since the plantlets would likely float up. I won't need much E. Tennelus or DHG, mabye a cup or DHG and a decent amount of E. Tennelus. I'll need a decent amount of blyxxa and rotala. Moss... I'm guessing I'll buy that in tissue culture as well. I'm not sure how much I use, a cup, mabye 2?

    As the mound in the back is quite big, is there any kind of filler I can put in so I don't have AS 7 inches deep?

    If I skip the dsm I'll need to go ahead and buy CO2, ferts, heater, and filter, along with the light and substrate.

    Everything I need to set up tank:
    CO2 (5 lb tank, inline diffuser, bubble checker, drop checker, regulator, solenoid, tubing)
    Chihiros RGB
    9 Liters ADA Amazonia Aquasoil
    Hydor inline heater
    EI dosing package from NilocG, alog with extra iron
    Canister filter (Eheim 2213, 2215, or penn plax cascade 1000??)
    Lily Pipes
    Plants
    Stand

    Thats all I think.

    Here is the scape with the tweaks you mentioned.
    P1050564.JPG P1050565.JPG P1050567.JPG

    I was trying to get proper lighting on it like it will be in the tank.
     
  3. mexicat

    mexicat Aspiring Aquascaper

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  4. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    I will definitely look into that and get some kind of filler. For one, its a waste of AS. And two, it might get anaerobic.
     
  5. Zeus

    Zeus Active Aquascaper

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    The RGB does give better colours. Don't like the idea of moving the tank once started. Have moved 50l tank in car once about 1hr trip, had no choice as was buying it cheap. Took most of water out and no big issues but yours is longer so carefully does it.

    Only done a DSM once, it did go well, had a big carpet to do so used lots of tubs wasn't cheap, but with smaller tank not so big an issue esp if someone else is paying.
    ShadowMac has tons more experience than me and does meet scapers who move tanks so I would listen to him.
    The Tennulus brown he mentioned I put in my tank, just got one tub and it didn't like the DSM, got another tub free, it wasnt the 1-2- grow, as couldn't get it from tropica, was in the jelly, tricky to get hold of over here, but one pot was enough. Spreads quickish, easy to remove and control.

    Suddenly everything is happening !!!

    Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface
     
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  6. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Moderator Staff Member

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    Planted aquariums do not get anaerobic. Plant roots oxygenate the soil. Aquasoil also does not compact over time. I literally have soil piled up more than 30 cm in my 90 p scape at the moment. I'm not concerned at all.
     
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  7. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    I know. I think with four people one on each side it could be done but would prefer not too. I guess its just the same as dsm and then tkaing over there and flooding. I just set up hardscape and plant there instead. I think three pots of monte carlo if I planted in small enough clumps could work well. My only concern with not doing a dsm is that the monte carlo will constantly be floating up. Same thing with the DHG. This E. Tennelus sounds better and better. So, since its an Echidnorous, I'm assuming you don't trim it, just cut shoots?

    I know! If I decide to flood and not dsm I'll slow down a bit and make sure I have everything I need.

    Makes sense cause its in little pellets.

    What do you guys think of the updated scape? Also, for the canister filter, Eheim 2213, Eheim 2215, or Penn Plax Cascade 1000? Also, does this sound good for if I skip dsm? When I first set it up I'll have CO2 blasting for the tissue cultured plants, I'll be doing 50% water changes every day for the first week, second week 50% water changes every other day, third week two 50% water changes, fourth week start very lean EI regime and 50% once a week. That sound right?
     
  8. Zeus

    Zeus Active Aquascaper

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    Cant have too much AS IMO, the more you have the more Ferts you have stored in the substrate, plus buffers the toxins too. Plus gives the Amanos something to move about :mad:

    As for filter your call really, DSM or not your call again. I would blast the CO2 OFC working out what BPS best suits tank, pH pen very handy for working out the BPS.
     
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  9. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    I think I'll stick with the penn plax. I like the higher flow rate, and I think with a lily pipe it will reduce the flow better. Also, I can always turn it down a bit. Speaking of lily pipes... If I have a lily pipe inflow and outflow, what do I do for surface skimming? I know my surface gets nasty fast if my skimmer goes down. I don't have the greatest surface agitation because I have the surface skimming.

    Only reason I want to a dry start is bc of the monte carlo floating. I have enough money to buy enough to carpet but its the rooting part I'm worried about. If I didn't dry start would the monte carlo stay in when I flooded?
     
  10. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    I assume if I dry start I'll want to get monte carlo tissue culture, if not then grown underwater? AFA is out of stock of rotala sunrise... Nowehre else has it. Can't find many people aside from ebay and etsy that carry blyxxa, my LFS carries E. Tennelus aka pygmy chain sword, it carries dhg too, AFA carries fissidens on a stainless steel mat, I'll get that. I'll see if my LFS can order in blyxxa or rotala sunrise. My LFS should be able to order in monte carlo. I think I'll just get rotala H'ra instead. I think two bunches will be enough, I can cut them in half and plant, combined with the blyxxa it should fill that up back area. I think one pot of dhg will be enough, idk where I'm going to find blyxxa though.

    3 pots monte carlo
    1 mat of fissidens fontanus
    2 bunches rotala H'ra
    7 or 8 blyxxa plants depending on size
    1 pot dhg
    1 pot E. Tennelus

    How am I going to plant the monte carlo so it doesn't float up?
     
  11. Zeus

    Zeus Active Aquascaper

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    Well no not with DSM it can be less as in a DSM it will grow faster as will have lots of CO2 from atmosphere, plus you can max the light out too so grows faster

    Thats the beauty of DSM its already rooted OFC, Did have to replant my carpet of HC and MC in my 50l tank recently due to an extended Holiday. I had used the lights off for a week method, holiday turn into three weeks) So carpet wasnt looking too good, gave it a few weeks not happy, brown underneath so pulled it all up, picked out the best bits, mainly HC and planted it carefully, but can be tricky as not much roots as had died back. Coming along nicely ATM.

    Not heavy planting ?

    just right IMO

    Plants not in stock can be a pain (n)
     
  12. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Thats the question I'm struggling with. I don't want to dry start but its this thats the problem. You said you basically planted your carpet of HC underwater? If so I might skip the dsm.

    I thought that would be. You think I need more? There's really not that much space in between the rocks. Might get 3 bunches rotala. Don't need much moss, or DHG or e tennelus. Mabye 4 pots monte carlo 3 bunches rotala? Yeah... I still haven't found anyone to get blyxxa from.
     
  13. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Moderator Staff Member

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    If you plant well you don't have floating plants. Stick enough of the stem in the substrate. I've never tried to DSM TC plants before, so can't say how well it works or not. Don't flood then plant. Plant everything with wet soil. then flood.

    Filter wise I can only speak to the eheims and either will work. 2213 should be plenty for a 20 long. Skimming wise I'd get either an independent skimmer like an eheim or the intake attachment that skims the surface into your filter. These are nice.

    I think AFA is the only place you can get R. sunrise. Its TC from hortilabs I think.
     
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  14. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    But most professional aquascapes I've seen only have a glass inflow and lily pipe outflow. What do they do for surface skimming? I may get the H'ra instead or depending on how long the cabinet takes see if it comes back in stock. I'm going to order the ADA amazonia powder type from the green machine. You think the 2213 will be enough flow? Only 116 gph, thats 6 times turnover of the tank.

    Went over and went over some things. First, told her I decided not to do the dry start. I'm just going to buy an extra pot of monte carlo. She wants my friend who is a carpenter to build her a maple polyurethane finished stand with a granite top. He doesn't do the fastest work but his work is fantastic. It will set the time back about a month or so. I'm going to go ahead and order the light, substrate, heater, CO2 and ferts. I placed an order for the plants at my LFS because it will take them a bit to get them in and they'll hold them for me until I pick them up.
     
  15. Zeus

    Zeus Active Aquascaper

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    Dont use mine as it was an Otto trap, lost quite a few. Handy when doing a trim as gets all the small bits out of water

    Some use the type where its built into the water exhaust from tank. I would go for that type but wont fit my tank with it being ribbed/hooded.

    The x10 rule is a guide for high tech tanks, the smaller the tank the less the need from what I have read, but always nice to have the extra as you can always turn it down.
     
  16. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Moderator Staff Member

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    then get the bigger filter. Either should work fine for this tank and this layout. If you get an independent skimmer like an eheim skim or Azoo skimmer then you can do the smaller filter. If you use the skimmer that attaches to the filter inlet use the bigger filter. This scape is open and the tank isn't deep...you can get away with less.

    Professional aquascapers use skimming and they also clean a tank and remove unnecessary equipment before taking photos. I wouldn't take photographs or even some videos as gospel in terms of the equipment being used.

    Why are you ordering aquasoil from overseas? Shipping has to be crazy. TGM is in the UK. Get soil from AFA or some other US based shop. Powder type is more expensive and not really all that necessary.
     
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  17. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Like this one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glass-pipe...hash=item25dd43be15:m:mDq-9HFKk5DV8pEn2Nj_ZNw that's basically what I have, except mine isn't glass. Its the fluval surface skimmer is what I have

    The eheim 2215 still isn't 10x flow rate but I think it will work.

    If I get the eheim 2213 and just get a lily pipe outflow that creates a small whirlpool that sucks surface skim down into the outflow. Will that work? Also, whats the difference between this lily pipe and this one? They're different shapes.

    Didn't think of that... I'll just order regular aquasoil from the US. I thought the monte carlo would have a hard time rooting in the regular size? I know my HC carpet tends to peel up really easily.

    I guess so. They don't want you to see all the equipment.

    For the rest of the equipment I need to gather is CO2, heater, and filter. Heater I'll be doing hydor eth 300 watt, CO2 is 5 or 10 lb tank, I'll ask her which she wants, a regulator, tubing, drop checker, bubble counter, and atomizer. What is a good regulator?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017 at 11:24 AM
  18. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    SHe came over to look at my stand and background. Also looked at hardscape. Quite a few things.

    First, black background. Not my favorite, but its what she wants. It will really make the neons and green plants pop too.
    Second, she doesn't want a full carpet. She only wants the E. Tennelus and DHG tapering into the monte carlo carpet, which then tapers into sand. [​IMG]

    Sort of like this but smoother transition. How am I going to stop AS from coming down and spreading across sand? Put in substrate dividers, and until the monte carlo grows in just pick out any AS pellets that drift onto sand?

    Third, this is going to be her stand https://www.costco.com/TRINITY-72"-Stainless-Steel-Rolling-Workbench.product.100235688.html . Hmmmm. I'm going to drill a hole in the back of it, run my tubes out the back, along the back to the right side, then turn and up the right side of the tank into the lily pipes. I'm going to buy clear filter hose so its less obtrusive. I'm going to try it without elbows for now, if it doesn't work and kinks I'll get some elbows.

    So now its ordering equipment. I'm debating between a 5 and 10 lb CO2 tank. What size do you guys have and how long do they last? Also, what are some good regulator/solenoids? I'm thinking I'll go with the Eheim 2213, with a lily pipe to create a vortex so I won't need surface skimming. If that doesn't work I'll get a mini independent surface skimmer. Heater will be Hydor ETH 300 watt inline. Light is Chihiros A series with stainless steel sand, and substrate a 9 liter bag of Aquasoil Amazonia regular. I'm also going to get ADA Colorado sand, which was the one she liked. I think it will match well with the rocks. I wonder how much I'll need.... 2 kg or 8? For ferts I'm going to get this package from nilocG with 1/2 lb iron chelate. Since I have a large budget I will also be getting a gram scale so I can dose dry instead of making a mixture. To make it easy for her, I'm going to measure out weekly doses every time I do a water change, and put them in labeled pill boxes. That way she'll just dump in that days fert. Sure, extra work for me, but I'm getting paid for the maintnence.

    Plants I placed a special order at my LFS, only plants I need to order is fissidens and rotala sunrise.
     
  19. Culprit3

    Culprit3 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Also, would it benefit me to get an RO/DI system so I know there's no contaminents or is it not neseccary?
     
  20. Zeus

    Zeus Active Aquascaper

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    I like black background, gives the impression on infinity.

    The costumer is always right, after all they are paying, dont promise something your not confident you can supply.

    Also helps if the costomer has agreed to everything before you start getting gear.

    A 6Kg CO2 cylinder last about a month on my 500l tank with very high BPS rate and big pH drop, But same cylinder has been on 50l tank for months on end for same pH drop. but I would expect it to last ten times longer. Big tanks use a lot of CO2
     

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