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Controlling CO2 levels

Discussion in 'Water Chemistry' started by Zeus, Oct 22, 2016.

  1. Zeus

    Zeus Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Hi

    Been thinking - sorry :rolleyes:

    We are after the CO2 level getting to the ideal level fast then staying there without becoming toxic to the inhabitants off the tank but high enough for optimum plant growth, but we end up with a bell curve OFC

    so we are after a Table top not a bell curve ideally
    Graph CO2 levels.png

    ( sorry just a quick job)

    So ignore the cost for a moment. and just have two soleniods, needle valves, diffusers etc and just have one soleniod switch off once the "Just right" CO2 level is reach.

    ovbiously you would need to play with the BBS until you hit the sweat spot

    Surely this would make it easier

    Just a thought

    Zeus

    Edit - oops wrong section pls move to Equipment
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  2. Zeus

    Zeus Aspiring Aquascaper

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    You would only need one diffuser OFC , just have both supplies going to one diffuser ie just have a tee adaptor simple.

    Once setup should work treat and get a very fast initial climb in CO2 levels like in the table top graph above and the falling CO2 levels would be more like in the Bell curve due too loss from the tank.

    Someone must of already done this - surely :unsure:
     
  3. Zeus

    Zeus Aspiring Aquascaper

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    slept on this and if folks are not doing it why not.

    heres my take on it.

    the CO2 gets into the water at a constant rate the diffusser as far as I'm aware its on or off, yes their is the pH controller method but that has issues with its use. but the C02 injection method is on or off we don't have a throttle on it the controller just switches it on and off.

    My analogy

    Our CO2 level is a plane on the ground,with limited fuel. we have mountain to over (we wont the CO2 at optimal level fast for obvious reasons) the engines can be on or off no throttle control. We have two engines. we can set the engine thrust (BBS) on the ground. we need 50% thrust (4 BBS) on one engine to cruise at 10,oo0 feet ( 25-30 ppm CO2) to to take off and clear the mountain we need both engines on at 50% (8 BBS combined). So we take off both engines ON reach cruising altitude switch ONE OFF. get close to our destination. switch other engine off. (or plane runs out of fuel in analogy). this would give us the ability to fly making a TABLE TOP flight giving max range (Fine control)

    Zeus

    Posted at UKAPS
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  4. Zeus

    Zeus Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Had some feedback at UKAPS nothing to put me off the idea so posted at Barr report ;)
     
  5. Zeus

    Zeus Aspiring Aquascaper

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    (Made some progress with graphs I had planned, Hennery’s law etc, etc, then slept on it and subconscious mind was busy all night!! And took it to the next level )

    Long post warning!!! Sorry

    In Toms classic Puddle of mud there was no flow (at first) and the tank thrived – Low tech tank OFC. High tech tanks users tend to aim for x10+ turnover as that’s what works well OFC.
    Its all about the speeding up the mixing of nutrients when we play ‘God’ in the high tech tank because of the effect of Mass Diffusivity of Mass in water in being very very very slow

    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Comparison of diffusion of CO2 in Air and water for example-
    In this comparison we assume the CO2 travels in a straight line ( which OFC it does not. There’s random movement and a concentration gradient, but to make it simple we will ignore that)
    Carbon dioxide in air has a diffusion coefficient of 16 mm2/s
    so for a tank 1.6m long in air would take 100secs to reach other side off tank

    But
    Carbon dioxide in water its diffusion coefficient is 0.0016 mm2/s
    so for 1.6m tank would take 1,000, 000 seconds or 11.5 days
    That’s 10,000 times slower so in a high tech tank we need good turnover, (x10) to mix the CO2 and nutrients when we play ‘God’ over our ecosystem
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    So what I’m postulating is that this x10 turnover may not be needed all the time! and that this turnover is decreasing efficiency when on 24/7, as the CO2 is being lost faster at the surface, we may only need the x10 turnover for times when we want to drastically change the concentrations and mix anything, eg When we want to change the Waters Carbon Dioxides Concentration ([CO2]aqu) for plant growth before the lights come on.
    So ‘say’ you have turnover rate of x5, so adequate water surface movement to get enough gaseous exchange in at night and maintain equilibrium in the tank ie Balanced between the atmospheric air, water column, Substrate(High CEC)and keep at right temp.

    But in High tech tank we want to dramatically change the [CO2]aqu and Mix the ferts.,( we can not change the laws of physics!) so with mass diffusivity being so slow in aqueous media we need a higher turnover (x10) to enable us to reach the new desired levels [CO2]aqu relatively quickly. But once at the desired level and equilibrium is reached the x10 turnover will be helping the [CO2]aqu fall. So once we have reached the ideal [CO2] turn the turnover down to x5!( get the slow mass diffusivity to work to our advantage) As after all we have to do is to maintain the [CO2]aqu to take care of surface loss and plant uptake. During this X10 turnover period would (IMO) be the ideal time to have a higher rate(BBS) of CO2 input (have the Ferts auto dosing at same time too) this period can last for say one hour. Then reduce turnover x5 with just enough CO2 (BBS) to maintain those ideal levels. This lower flow rate won’t need as much surface ripple either as all we want is a slower flow, so water return for this could possibly be lower, therefore reducing CO2 loss even more.
    Run the x10 turnover for one hour when lights go off too.(no CO2 OFC). These two one hour periods with X10 (or more!) turnover rates may be even enough to keep on top of the detritus build up as good as 24/7 x10

    There we have it, dawn of the ‘Eco High Tech Tank’. Yes more initial setup costs timers, pumps etc.
    But less CO2 usage, less power consumption with running lower turnover rates for most of time, less heat loss from tank, less evaporation from tank……
    Two workout periods for fish. Just like nature in way in estuaries, rivers, rain forests, windy periods The water flow rate changes and isn’t constant
    For smaller tanks the effort and cost just wonted be worth it but for the bigger tanks with multiple canisters, pumps, power heads CO2 diffusers/atomisers etc the relatively small cost of a few timers might make a difference to the running cost.

    Will it work – dunno, what settings for turnovers times –dunno Its just an idea of a Noob

    But can’t see why it wouldn’t work as well [​IMG] Yet

    Thanks for reading – Kudos due ( hope the grammer spelking was Ok)

    I welcome any feed back

    Zeus
     
  6. Zeus

    Zeus Aspiring Aquascaper

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    OK - would you buy or think buying the latest

    ADA Eco-Utratech- Ecosystem Complete

    Product features – small compact unit with twelve independent/configurable (via software) power outputs240v/110v/24v/12,v, pH sensor, temp sensor, flow sensor, Precision variable( by software) CO2 valve , WiFi,LAN, HDMI, VGA,DVI, software with Windows/Mac compatibly, allows you monitor/adjust/program Temp,CO2 input, CO2 ppm, flow rate though pump, Pumps RPM pump, ampage usage by pump/canister, control program for lights adjust volt/amps plus auto dosing control/tank topup control also. Then add smart app on your phone with full control/monitoring/alarms etc.

    Would you buy it, think would help make Aquascaping easier/better ?

    Basically give God like control over the tank. If the answer is NO I’m wasting my time on this :whistle:
     
  7. keithgh

    keithgh Moderator Staff Member

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    Zeus

    Can you post a link to that please.

    Keith:cat::cat:
     
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  8. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Moderator Staff Member

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  9. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Moderator Staff Member

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    sorry for short to the point posts...typing one handed while holding my sleeping son :sleep:

    we need sufficient flow to also break the leaf barrier and allow for the passage of nutrients primarily CO2. You can get away with less...depends upon scape design and plant mass/density. this can reduce flow drastically in some high density areas.
     
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  10. Zeus

    Zeus Aspiring Aquascaper

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    The link for the ADA Eco-Utratech- Ecosystem Complete isn’t possible is not on the web or the dark web, I would need a spinal interface link me up to web and the addresses would end something Like …zeus/noob/backoff mind/wizbangideas/offhisrocker/adaecoultratechecoesystemcomplete thnk you get my drift:whistle:

    But if there was one and at £50 mine would be ordered. So I have been searching/reading on remote management systems with smart phone apps etc. There is a lot out there. Some very expensive industrial system very cool but cost too much. Then there the reasonably priced ones available. Eg LightwaveRF and Energenie.

    I was thinking I might be able to vary the water pumps speed by altering the current. So emailed the company’s in question and got the answer NO. Wasn’t put off with that reply took a dimmer light switch rigged up a plug and socket and gave it a try. They were right, decrease the available current to the pump it slows a little then it stops. So the idea of controlling water flow rates with dimmer switch is out the window. The pump is on or off, yes can adjust the values but can’t do it remotely or on a schedule without a remote adjustable value, so dropped that idea.

    Wasn’t after light dimming as already have Kessil controller for lights

    Most off the Remote units use a WiFI or Lan connection to communicate via smart app with the main control unit. Ok no problem with that as long as the schedules is being run from the control unit. After all remote access is just a bonus. It’s the RF communication between the control unit and the sockets, it can be hit and miss at times. We need something reliable 100%.

    So ordered myself

    Energenie LAN Power Management System £65(great specs) with smart app control.

    Which will allow me to play with the timings easy, 16 a day per socket (4off) and I can have a play with the “Zeus booster” idea that’s will cost me £70 extra for extra CO2 equipment.

    If the “Zeus boost” idea fails ( which it might well do:rolleyes:) I'm ready to add another tank CO2 wise (y)
     
  11. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Moderator Staff Member

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    have you looked at the ecotech pumps. the mp 10 models are great for our application. I think the larger ones are too strong. they come with a controller which allows for various flow modes. I don't know if you would need more than one, but you can slave one pump to a master pump and they coordinate with each other. I used either constant flow mode or the lagoon mode. I have to say rhythmic swaying of plants is hypnotizing...most of our fish come from river zones however and may not appreciate that type of flow. The lagoon mode cycles through various speeds over time between a max set point and a proportionate low point.
     
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  12. Zeus

    Zeus Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Looks good but the pumps are SO powerful, plus was going to try and not have power head unless I had a deep spot in the flow.

    Cancelled the ordered Energenie LAN Power Management System £65
    read this
    How to use a PLC to control your fish tank very tempting indeed ;) auto dosser as well (y) just bit of DIY :whistle:
     
  13. keithgh

    keithgh Moderator Staff Member

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    Zeus

    If you reduced the pump pressure too much "could" it build up a back pressure, just a thought?

    Keith
     

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