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Cherry Shrimp Poisoning HELP?

Discussion in 'Shrimp and Invertz' started by speedingorange, Sep 29, 2010.

  1. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    I am fairly sure it isn't hydra. As I tested another shrimp in the net just within the water and it was playing up.

    But I know what you mean by appearing to be paralysed.

    I am not sure that whatever it is isn't playing the corys up. They are not scratching any more, but they are still really docile not happy foraging like when I first got them.

    I am going to tear my hair out at this rate lol I started the tank as i wanted to keep shrimp more than anything.

    p.s. My water is uber uber uber clear now :) lol suppose that's one good thing.

    Once I get another bucket free i will start testing with substrate but i cant for the life of me think how an inert substrate can cause problems like this.
     

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  2. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    I would be pulling my air out too. I think after a few days I'd have had everything out and boiling the lot. lol

    AC
     
  3. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Right plan now...

    Once formalin treatment is done. Wich will be Friday now, Strip tank, new substrate. Bit warey of boiling the one I have in case it causes problems with the resin coating.

    I will put all the plants into fresh water too soak also.

    Just cant believe my luck :( all my plants are just starting to root nicely too.

    Would I need to do anything with the filter?
     
  4. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    TBH I would think there are only 2 options with the filter media. It will have been affected as much as the rest of the porous stuff.

    I would put it all in a bleach/water solution ~(1:10 or similar) for an hour

    Then rinse thoroughly.

    Then soak in a heavy dechlor solution for a day. Use 10 x the usual amount of dechlor as per normal.

    Then it should be ready to use again apart from the Purigen which you should soak for a day in vinegar to raise its Ph to a normal level.

    As for the tank once you have it empty I would scrub all the glass and inside the filter as best you can, then fill up with water and run the filter for an ohur or so, fully empty and repeat a copule of times. Just to flush out as much as possible the inner crevices etc.

    I would suggest going for a standard planted substrate. Not necessarily an expensive one but one that does not leech ammonia at the start.

    Something like Akadama or Tropica topped with small rounded black gravel. The top layer is really an aesthetic but it needs to be as rounded as possible for bottom feeders like Corys.

    Then re attach any necessary plants to hardscape and reposition.

    One third fresh water dechlored and in with the rest of the plants, then top up.

    Run it for an hour with the heater raising the temp, test parameters and re-test the shrimp via acclimatising.

    Next day water change 50% and then rinse the Purigen through thoroughly before readding to the filter.

    Monitor stats for a few days to make sure the Purigen is soaking up all the ammonia.

    If that doesn't work I am really stumped.


    AC
     
  5. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    sounds like a plan. Do you have a messenger just to discuss the substrates & a couple of other things? bit faster and easier than on here.
     
  6. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Right:

    After speaking with AC last night,

    I lost one of the shrimp in my shrimp bucket this morning. It was the shirmp that was in the tank yesterday. I guess it was just too much for it. :(

    I have just done a 40 Litre water change. and Have not dosed any more formalin into the water on the main tank.

    I'm going to let it circulate for a couple of hours. Give it chance to mix and also pick up anything it might pick up from the water.

    Then I will take 10 litres out and try the shrimp in it away from the tank.

    This should eliminate hydra etc.

    and see if whatever is causing the problem is still being leached into the water.

    If all goes to plan and they shrimp are happy in the tank water then it shows it is more than likely something to do with the tank possibly hydra? who knows.

    But it will at least rule a few things out.
     
  7. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Just about to test them to see what happens, my corydoras are soooo lethargic though at the moment... not sure if this is related..

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW7nKUz-Mf0"]YouTube - Lazy corydoras[/ame]
     
  8. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    30 mins in the bucket and mr shrimp seems to be fairly happy... is this a good or a bad sign...
     
  9. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Its a good sign. It means that it is a physical thing within the tank and not the water.

    Also in that video. why are the Corydoras hiding in the plants? There should be some at least on the substrate!!! That would suggest to me that something on the substrate is not to their liking.

    AC
     
  10. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Good point. Could that be the hydra?
     
  11. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Just to remove this possibility, i dosed 0.5ml of panacur 2.5% liquid this morning. Will be keeping a close eye on the tank :)
     
  12. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Hope all goes well. I am pretty much out of ideas.

    AC
     
  13. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    well if this dont sort it i will be placing an order to aqua essentials lets put it that way for new substrate. Drain and restart.

    The planaria have really come out the woodwork they are everywhere dont look very happy either.

    There are loads more hydra than i thought that I can see now they have bunched up.
    can only cross my fingers.
     
  14. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    That dog wormer is awesome stuff init :)

    AC
     
  15. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    yeah certainly seems to be hard hitting.
     
  16. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Once this is all sorted btw. I may be after some of your cherry shrimp and maybe some MTS?
     
  17. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Lol. You sure you want MTS? The cherrys will do the algae eating and the Cories will turn the substrate top over.

    Cherries are no problem. I'm building the colony up at mo but will sell again after the winter (I could do 10-20 before hand I suppose) I sold 200ish last month so don't want to let it get too low.

    AC
     
  18. Jae

    Jae New Member

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    Something like that happened to me before when I added a bunch of new plants shipped from Aquariumplants.com.
    I didn't have shrimp, but it was a bare tank with 9 corydoras catfish fry. They were 3 or four weeks old. I had kept them and raised them with alot of care. Then when I came back they were upside down and seemed drunk or something. Some of them I was sure had died because they weren't moving and laying on thier side.

    Good thing I was there. I scooped them up and put them in pure new tap water beaker. I wwas off in a rush somewhere, so I had to go. I was thining that they'd be all dead by the time I was back, but I have it my last shot hoping for a miracle a little tiny tiny bit of hope. You couldn't imagine how bad I felt after that.

    But then when I got back they were ALL well and upright, it was unbelievable.
    It has been almost tow months now and they are all alove and well and growing bigger everyday! The tap water saved them!!!

    I think there was alot of Co2 in the plants. That is my probably guess.
     
  19. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    well all the hydra are bunched up into little blobs this morning. Some of the corys are sat on the plants still but some are on the substrate.

    I guess it will take a few days for them to realise they wont be stung every 2 seconds.

    Will give it a few more days till the planaria also croak it . Then I will try a shrimp again.

    Supercoley. im just thinking the MTS may eat anything I have missed in my substrate with the hoover :) although my hairgrass is starting to grow really fast now so i guess this will do the same thing. Shame I want to move it all to the other side of the tank now. lol
     
  20. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    I hate to say I told you so but it is indeed looking like the substrate was the problem. Not something to gloat on but something to watch.

    It is a problem that shouldn't arise in the future.

    Your substrate was getting dirty, organics were building and with the setup being new and plant roots not yet developed too well there was no help from there to remove the organics.

    Now your plants are a little older then they will pull those organics away thus negating the reason you got the planaria and Hydra.

    I remember originally suggesting Hydra on the shrimps reaction and you are seeing now there were loads more than you thought. It is good they are curling up and dying. I suspect the Formalin weakened both the planaria and Hydra to the point they were struggling to get O and when they came out of their hiding places the Panacur is finishing them off. I'll bet the Formalin did the majority of the work there.

    Thats not me being big headed. More me feeling good that maybe my initial instincts of phydra and substrate were right :)

    As for the MTS. People have a false belief that MTS burrrow through the substrate. The truth is they live in the top 1cm or so of the substrate. They turn over the top and therefore eat a lot of the organic matter before it gets a chance to go further down. Not lal but a decent amount.

    However once your cory are fully happy they will do exactly the same. Not burrow down and sleep in the substrate but they will snuffle scraps from the substrate, permanently scavaging and whilst doing so they will turn over the top 1cm or so of the substrate. Similar to many Cichlids especially dwarf sp.

    They are sand sifters, they take in huge amounts of sand and then take the food while the sand pours out of their gills. Effectively they polish the substrate top layer :)

    Cherrys are very similar. As excess food, poop, dead vegetation, algae rests on the substrate surface they charge around the substrate cleaning it all up.

    I have never been one to clean gravel nor suck up detritus on the substrate. I do my water changes by disconnecting the filter hose connector from the cannister and then opening the valves over a bucket. No syphoning used at all.

    I have done it that way probably since a few weeks after I bought my first tank. Laziness at the time, however with no substrate cleaning at all, some heavy fish stocking to boot

    I have never had any of these problems that the OCD crowd can get where they religiously 'hoover' round the plants sweeping up all detritus in fear of problems only to be rewarded with Cyanobacteria (BGA clime algae) or substrate borne parasites :)

    Thats not to say everyone should forget about cleaning the substrate. I have sand and also sand sifters. I had Pitbull plecs before, and Rams. Sand is fine and it is hard for organics to get deep into it without some asistance.

    Yours is gravel and therefore there are little gaps, pockets if you like for detritus to get a head start and rest already a few mm below the visible layer. A little like the game Kerplunk :)

    However don't let fear of something happen make you be paranoid about it because you can often cause problems that may not have been there before.

    Basic things I can say:
    My tank prior to last month had zero water changes for a year, zero CO2 and zero substrate cleaning and...........zero problems :)

    When you plant or move things do a heavy water change afterwards. 50%

    Try to let plants grow rather than moving them around.

    Watch the fish and enjoy them. Learn what they are doing for their environment. Clean up crew is not all about algae eating. It is a workplace in itself where the Corys are my refuse collectors. The shrimp are the man with the litter grabber picking up what was blowing around the street.

    The Espei are...onlookers. lol

    AC
     

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