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Cherry Shrimp Poisoning HELP?

Discussion in 'Shrimp and Invertz' started by speedingorange, Sep 29, 2010.

  1. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Think i might have got to the bottom of it.

    Went into my LFS this morning with a water sample, explained what had happened.

    Ran new plants under the tap then put them in the tank

    then the cherries played up.

    Did a water change, left it 2 days and tried again and it played up again.

    His words:

    "was one of the plants cabomba"

    Yes

    "did you get it early in the week"

    Yes

    "Did the plants look really super fresh and come in neat 'flat' plastic bags"

    Yes

    He basically said that the cabomba before it leaves Singapore it MUST by law be sprayed with insecticides before it is allowed to leave the country.

    These plants then when they arrive in the UK are washed for about a week normally before being sent out. When they are washed they are in big tanks that have water flowing in one end and then flowing out onto the floor the other.

    So they are really thoroughly washed.

    I also know the place I bought it from said that on average they hold plants for less than a week before they arrive at the customers door to ensure they are 'fresh'! so how on earth did they wash them in that time? as they are meant to.

    Apparently its fairly common for cabomba especially to really hold onto things as its got so much surface area and even running it under a tap wont wash it off as it clumps together and becomes a little sponge like, its not the first time he has heard of it.

    He said don't worry about it now if the other things in the tank are not bothered by it just add carbon to the filter ( which I have done) and do water changes of about 50% twice in the next week and then try again. He said he would eat his hat if it wasn't insecticides.

    I trust his opinion as he used to work in a massive wholesalers and used to visit the farms where this stuff is grown saw them being sprayed, and then overlooked them being washed this end.


    SO from now on I will be soaking every plant for a week or so before putting it in the tank! unless i know they have come from a friends tank or w/e and then I will rinse under the tap.

    So this time next week we will see if he eats his hat i guess :) makes sense to me though.

    The reseller is on ebay, and the plants are really good quality look like brand new perfect condition so i would recommend them for sure, just be sure to wash and soak for a long time!
     

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  2. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Its the first time I ever heard that. lol

    See if it works. Sounds dodgy to me though.

    AC
     
  3. Betta_Addict

    Betta_Addict New Member

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    I know about planted tank being less concerned about ammonia, nitrite spikes but, I also think that we must keep an eye on it anyway. Particulary on the first weeks of a new tank because it doesn't mean it will never happen...

    So, you said you checked it ! That makes this reason out of the way! :)

    P.S. No offense taken for the deleted post. Mistakes happens :D
     
  4. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for your understanding about the deleted post. Far too in a rush last night. Must take more care.

    Yes things can go wrong in the first few weeks but many of us have gotten used to not worrying. When we give advice its often a case of speaking as if we assume the other person does exactly what we do :)

    I guess thats a human aspect in that we do X and don't think about the possibility that others don't do X :)

    I think for someone starting out they should test and keep tabs on things, learn whats happening and get used to the process. After that they can choose whether to continue that process or not :)

    AC
     
  5. randy0319

    randy0319 Aspiring Aquascaper

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    I thought I might share what I have heard and found out the hard way. I dosed my big fishbowl with flourish excel to help riccia anubias and some swords and that killed my 5 buddy bubblegums right off. Some even tried to jump out of the tank. stupid me put them back in and they died. It could be the copper in this stuff. I got a new batch in another fish bowl and this time no excel in the dosing --and so far so good. I hope that this helps---R
     
  6. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Does Excel have copper in it?

    From my understanding it has gluteraldehyde and also another agent to break down iron into a more usable form.

    Therefore I would suggest that unless you are adding a large amount of chelated iron which is being broken down by the Excel giving very high levels of iron that it is the Gluteraldehyde that is killing the shrimp.

    It is quite well known that overdosing Excel or any of the Liquid Carbons can result in problems with invertebrates but it is not a clear case as many who have overdosed have had no such problems. I OD about 1.5x with cherry shrimp in a little 10ltr (should have more problems in a smaller tank) and have no deaths.

    Something to be aware of and if in doubt follow the label dosing.

    AC
     
  7. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Seems im back to square one with this. Since the original problem I have tried the shrimp back in the water about a week & a half ago now and they started playing up. So i returned them to their second tank and they were fine.

    After doing LOADS of water changes recently I tried them again today and they are playing up again? anyone any ideas on what could be setting all this off? I can't for the life of me think what might be able to stay in the water and irritate them for this long. up untill 21 days ago I have been running activated carbon in the filters too to remove anything that should not be there.

    The whole thing is getting really frustrating now.

    Should i remove the plants that were added that started the whole thing? just to eliminate possibilities?
     
  8. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Just removed all the plants that were added the night the problems all started.

    They are now in a big vase doing a good impression of a table ornament.

    Shrimp are now living in a bucket for 3 days before going back into my quarantine tank with some new arrivals waiting to make there way into my main tank.

    Tomorrow when i do a 25% water change im going to really thoroughly hoover some of the areas at the back of the tank where the cabomba was as i have noticed some plant matter has built up here.

    Water test shows water stats at

    PH 7.0 / 7.5
    GH 60
    KH 60 ish
    Nitrite 0
    Nitrate 10

    Tank:
    AquaOne 510 76 Litres

    Filter:
    Overhead in hood filter

    Media:
    ( from top to bottom)
    Sponge (came with tank)
    Ceramic noodles / tubes (came with tank)
    Seachem Purigen
    Zeolite ( unsure of brand but was used on old tank no problems)
    Catering Sponge ( used on old tank and in quarantine tank no problems)


    Substrate

    Aquaone black gravel
    Course Stone chippings (was used on old tank no problems and is in quarantine tank no problems

    Chemicals:
    Ocean 1 Declorinator ( used on both Tanks no problems 2 drops per gallon)
    Tropica Aquacare Plant Nutrition + ( haven't dosed since problems started was dosing before at 1ml per 10 litres)
    King British Safe water (have not dosed since i started the first tank)

    Hardscape


    Bogwood x 2 pieces have both been in since the start at some point or other.

    Plants:
    (Before problems)
    1 x oxegenating weed of some sort has been in from the very start. (local LFS)
    Java moss (ebay)
    Bunch of dwarf hair grass (local LFS)
    Hc (local LFS)
    Riccia (ebay)

    When problems started

    Batch 2 of dwarf hair grasses ( aqua- essentials added 2 days before problems started)
    added night of first problems
    Java fern - ( Last Trading Post Ebay
    Riccia - (last trading Post ebay)
    Java moss ( forum member)

    drop checker
    4dkh Solution from aqua essentials
    PH solution supplied with it from china

    Livestock:

    Pygmy corydoras x 10 from old tank
    4 x cherry shrimp from old tank
    1 x assassin snail added 5 - 6 days before problems started -(ebay)
    10 x Microrasboras brigatte(added and died after issues started with whitespot)

    100's of hitch-hiker snails of various types.
     
  9. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    GH and KH 60ish? You sure

    Is that ppm?

    I'm starting to think it is the substrate or hardscape that may be the problem. Something that is leaching to a certain level and has altered the parameters somewhere.

    It can't be anything on the plants. Would be gone by now. A decent rinse should be all that was needed in the first place to remove anything and as you said you've done that.

    AC
     
  10. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Thats what my test kit reads at. I will test the quarantine tank and see what that reads.

    The same test strips show my tap water as having:

    GH 60
    KH 40
    Ph 6.5
    N02 0 No3 0

    And hospitol Tank water as:
    GH 120
    KH 40
    ph 7
    no2 0
    no3 20

    Just tested tank water again

    GH 60
    KH 40
    ph 7
    No2 0
    N03 10

    EDIT] Mg /litre is the measurement

    Could be naf test strips? there API 5 in 1 dip strips.
     
  11. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    Just some other observations of the tank:

    Couple of very small hydra here and there and a couple of small planaria worms also.

    A weird white fluff stuff has appeared on the suction cup of the thermostat? was hidden before by the cabomba. Could this be something? Pic to follow shortly.

    Corrydoras all seem to be very inactive and quite docile also.
     
  12. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Sort of thinking alowed here...

    Could it be that when i set up the new tank i used the old substrate in there beneath the new substrate. Could any matter that was within the old substrate have been disturbed when I planted the new plants and could it now be releasing nasties into the water? what could it release other than amonia and No2? Should i remove everything from the tank and Hoover the whole lot out with tank vacuum and then refill? see if that cures it?
     
  13. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Is thew Formalin dosing doing anything? Has it reduced the Hydra/Planaria?

    Hydra is a big problem with shrimp.

    Also I don't like the look of that sucker. The first pic made me think it may just be gunk but the second definately looks like some sort of living organism.

    From the list you gave me on the forum the plants all came from seller's I would trust. Of course can't vouch for the forum seller but I would tend to trust a forum member.

    With the substrate I don't think it would be anything to do with using an old substrate and 'sealing it in. I basically do this each scape, syphon the sand of the top, give the sand a clean and then lay it back down on top of the ratten eggy stuff underneath.

    I was veering more toward the type of material used maybe playing with the params in terms of Ph or KH etc.

    The reason your params flagged up for me was because in the hobby people tend to talk about KH as a generalised term for carbonate hardness. The measurement most use are dKH where a single figure is the most likey reading or in some cases mEq/L.

    So to convert your 60mg/l would be a dKH of 3-4 by dividing by 17. I think thats the right conversion. Either way that sounds pretty feasible to me.

    When were the rasboras added? before or after the plants? After your last post I would tend to err on the side of parasites or similar nasties. These could well have come out of the old substrate and been unnoticed prior to the disturbance but its definately something that needs clearing out first.

    For now I would probably just keep the quaranitne tank going with the shrimp and try to eradicate the nasties within the new tank.

    AC
     
  14. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    The sucker has me weirded out it looks like a fungus? should the formalin have an effect? the snails seem to like eating it? It also appeared briefly on my drop checker inner tank water surface but has since vanished.

    Theformalin is having an effect on the planaria, in that they are no longer in the substrate and that a couple have ventured out in search of food as i guess the formalin has destroyed any would be food within the substrate. As for its effects on the fish, they are really docile but they have not been right since I put the new plants in really thinking about it.

    The rasboras were added after the initial plant problems. I purchased them thinking that if it was pesticides that it would have cleared by the time I bought them.

    The corys I have noticed are scratching again now in the main tank so I guess whatever is in there is having a go at the gills, no visible white spot though.

    White spot would not have any effect on shrimp though surely? The Hydra I don't think are the problem with the shrimp as the shrimp show ill effects when placed in a net in the water separate to all other tank hard scape / plants. ( I know hydra can prey on them, but at the moment i dot think this is the case / problem)

    Also if it was a parasite why does it not follow them out of the tank when i put them into a bucket etc? thats what makes me think its chemical with the shrimp?

    In case it is important I have also spotted other critters in the tank including:

    1 x Caterpillar ( came out the cabomba stem and made himself a nice cocoon type thing out of java fern leaf)
    lots of copepods

    RE substrate:

    One is resin coated and the other i think is similar to slate? ( pic http://speedingorange.com/media/tank/IMG_6842.JPG)
     
  15. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    If it is definately a water based chemical thing then I would suggest it isn't the plants. If it was a pesticide it would have been well washed off by this time in flowing water.

    The carbon would only have worked on it for a few days until it became inactive but the amount of water changes you have done since would've diluted it to the point of negligible effect if any.

    The planaria are in shock from the Formailin:
    Planaria: Tiny White Worms - SimplyDiscus

    There is obviously something in there that even with water changes is making the water unbearable for the shrimp. I would suggest the plants are least likely even if they brought the problem in (which I am doubtful of) and the likeliest candidates are the substrate or hardscape. Namely wood that soaks stuff up, substrate that soaks stuff up and some rock will also suck stuff up.

    I would take the carbon out as it will now be de-cativated/spent and therefore the contaminants may be stuck to it (adsorbed) and possibly leeching back in gradually?

    Really at a loss here. This may be a case of empty and restart a fresh.

    Is the other tank usable for a duration while you clean up the new tank and boil woods/rocks/substrates etc?

    AC
     
  16. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    The other tank at current has fish in it in quarantine that I'm waiting to put into the main tank as I was thinking it was just white spot to cure and I would be golden.

    Last night I removed the java fern and Cabomba that went in when all the problems started. The Java fern had some clay weights on their roots to hold them down. Could this of been releasing nasties? they went in the night i put the new plants in tied on by me.

    The corydoras this morning look a lot happier, first time i have seen all 10 of them shoal in a while., although still scratching.

    I guess I have two options then really.


    Option A)
    take livestock out the main tank pop them in a bucket with a heater. & airstone.

    Remove wood & boil it or even bin it I'm really not sure as to the quality of it now... although it was fine in the tiny 16 litre tank and you would think anything would have been amplified in there really.

    Take all the plants out and wash them in fresh water.

    Hoover the bajeesus out of the substrate, none of the substrate is of a pourus nature, the old substrate was either granite chippings or slate of some sort. And the new stuff is resin coated.

    Re-assemble and see what happens.

    or Option B)

    Remove livestock to bucket.
    Remove plants to separate bucket after washing.
    Boil wood
    Boil Substrate
    replace filter medium
    Wash down the whole of the tank let it dry.

    Reassemble

    Put fish from quarantine tank into the main tank. along with shrimp in 4 days time.

    put corys into hospital tank and continue to dose for white-spot.

    Monitor both for water quality as the main tank will have to silent cycle. Although 10 microrasboras should not be too much trouble seeing as I would have seachem purigen and zeolite running.


    =====

    I am aware however that if there is a chemical contaminate in the water from somewhere that this could be causing the gill scratching and making me think there is a white-spot issue still in the tank?

    Also something to note: The first piece of bogwood i added to the tanks seems to be the centrepiece of life in the aquarium, its always covered in snails and used to be the favourite grazing ground for the shrimp. The other is never ever touched by the fish or snails? could this be a sign?
     
  17. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Could well be a sign. I would treat the whitespot in the main tank. I see no point in removing already infected fish from the main tank to another. If they've got whitespot then the tank will now have it in there. The 6 days Formalin should wipe the whitespot out completely.

    As for the wood I would boil both bits and attach the java fern to something else. What sort of clay is it? Tropica is a clay substrate and I'm guessing it isn't like that.

    My guess is that something was introduced to the tank and that the porous materials have soaked up an amount of it.

    It is strange htough that it is only affecting one piece of wood. Are they different types of wood?

    Sorry this has gone on so long. I'm not a huge help. I'm pretty much a slapdash kind of person and I suppose been very lucky to never have any disease or parasite problems.

    AC
     
  18. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    wow fella dont apologise you really have been REALLY helpful! I would of drained the tank and sold it without your input lol.

    So today.

    I took the wood out and boiled it. Both bits of wood are the same type and came from the same shop. The large bit (the popular bit) STANK of eggs when I took it out the tank?

    I wont be putting either bit back in for a while, just in case it is naff low quality stuff that is maybe still rotting or something and does not belong in the tank?

    I have removed the clay its similar type clay to flower pot clay it was the little weight rings that you get in the base of plant pots such as hairgrass.

    I hoovered the whole tank heavily, apart from the bit where the hairgrass is growing as I cant face replanting twenty billion strands of grass.

    I topped the tank back up with formalin treated water.

    So now i guess leave it a few hours for the brunt of the formalin treatment to retreat then try a shrimp to see what happens.

    As far as I know i have removed everything that is porous in the tank... anything that could hold a chemical?

    Cross fingers :D
     
  19. speedingorange

    speedingorange New Member

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    well.... I haven't fixed it. Left it 16 hours since disturbing the tank last night before trying.

    Really getting annoying now.

    Things I have ruled out:

    Wood - No longer in tank.
    Cabomba - They have been living with it in their bucket for 4 days no problems.
    Java fern weights - No longer in Tank
    Java Moss - Binned.

    What on earth could it be?

    Just put one back in the tank and its not right at all. Video to follow:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhJhdc2QkvQ"]YouTube - Sick cherry shrimp[/ame]

    I really don't know what to do next other than take EVERYTHING out the tank inc substrate and start again.
     
  20. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    There must be something in there that it is doing it.

    It does look to me like a Hydra problem or similar because the shrimp swims and then all of a sudden just stops moving and sinks paralysed almost. Its like it is being stung by a hydra and then it gets knocked out for a millisecond.

    I would try samples of everything including substrate in another bucket (keep the safe one handy.)

    Other than I don't know. The Corys are not affected by whatever it is so it must be an issue that is slight but large enough to effect the shrimp without fish being affected at all.

    AC
     

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