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Art Debate

Discussion in 'The Aqua Lounge' started by Supercoley1, Aug 4, 2011.

  1. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Lol. I could very well understand someone describing a bouquet as boot polish or old leather but this critic had already described the bouquet and moved on to the pallet (tasting/flavour). She was describing the flavour as boot polish and old leather hence why I thought (to myself) how on earth can she say that. How does she know what these things taste like?

    Sometimes I wonder if some wine critics have to taste some very strange things to 'know' the taste because it is a descriptive that they are supposed to be able to use in their critique!! (or to make a name for themselves by using increasingly strange descriptives than their colleagues. One upmanship etc.

    On the categories suggestion I am am very much against categorisation. I think this is the strength (maybe the only strength other than prestige and number of entrants) of the IAPLC.

    All tanks are evaluated against each other. If a tank is small it doesn't get extra points for doing well in a small tank etc. It is the impact the effect etc not the tank size that gets the mark.

    If the size of tank was taken into account then people would all be doing small tanks to get the extra marks for difficulty :) Its a no win situation there.

    As for the way something is marked described above I am lost with that. You take the 'rules' on judging, end up with your points. then compare what you think of the scape and adjust the results? That is crazy. better for either the rules to be adhered to and the mark not 'adjusted' or for the personal taste to be given a marking category or best yet, rip up the grading guidelines and trust each judge to give his/her mark from 1000 points. forget technical merits and the rest of the blarb categories for the judging.

    Why pick a panel of 'esteemed' judges and then tell them how to judge scapes?

    Just pick those people who the organizer deems to be esteemed/credible and let them do what they do. If you don't like the marks they give then you got the wrong judges (or they maybe know better than you.)

    If you pick the judges then you should trust their opinion. Let them judge not dictate to them what they should mark on.

    I would take as an example No29. Some hate it because of the filter floss waterfall. Some hate it just because it has a waterfall and they think is cheesy. I have no doubt that if the rule about non natural material had not been there (I don't know if it is a written or unwritten rule) then this scape would have won the competition because it is absolutely incredible. The sense of perspective. The depth, the lighting the whole thing is absolutely amazing. To be honest it was the scape that caught my eye. not a waterfall. The waterfall is a secondary noticeable thing to me. I was struck by the artistry and sheer brilliance of the whole picture.

    As to whether anyone should use filter floss in a tank I say yes. For this hobby the competitions are for aquascapes. That is to mean that they are for one off photoshoots to be judged and therefore it is that moment in time that is marked. Doesn't matter if a material was used for the photoshoot and then removed afterwards.

    So until there is a competition that judges the whole shabang ( like the NBAT for dutch tanks but only for the actual scaping aspects) then we have to accept that the competitions (including our own ASWC) are judging a photo of a tank at one moment in time and not what went into creating it etc.

    Is that a good thing? should the judges be taking into account the process? I don't think so. Not for this competition. Aquascaping is a hobby. to be enjoyed. To show people mastery. To show people ability. however all of those aspects come into play to achieve an end goal. That end goal is that picture whether that picture is a photo or with the naked eye :) That is why it should be marked and only marked on that end goal photo.

    I think the actual photography aspect should be removed from judging as much as possible so that it is only the aquascape that is marked and not the photographic ability but then it is very hard to take away that kind of impact.

    At the end of the day though I think the best competition should get the best judges and let them judge. Only rules needed: Must be your scape, must be in by deadline, must not be photoshopped....rules end. Onto the judges. decide what is best list the order and points out of 1000 (with no suggestion as to how to give points)

    That way judge 1 thinks scape 1 is 20th best. judge 2 thinks it is 1st best and Judge 2 thinks it is 50th. Comes in 21st in the competition but at least you know that is what people you respect, people you have seen on the interweb, people who you looked up to and maybe tried to copy yourself before you developed your own style have decided. Not some rigid marking policy that great people have been reduced to scoring within its confines.

    Andy
     

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  2. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    As to a question above r.e. is a child's finger painting. Is it art? I think so. Of course it is.

    I will let you guys tell me though. This was done by my 5 year old son. Is he an artist and is this art. In my (obviously biased) opinion ....most definitely yes. Is he a genius as per the original? No but he may well develop and become so!!! It is that latter part that defines our questions above r.e. 'copies' Can that person move on from copies or are they just to reproduce someone else's thoughts for the rest of their lives?


    [​IMG]

    Andy
     
  3. Aquadream

    Aquadream Guest

    The picture of your son is not any form of art. It is just a childs picture.
    Did you not guys said to keep to IAPLC related subjects. Why continue with this then? What are you going to proof?
     
  4. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    We are saying it does not matter what an expert describes as Art. Any picture or any object that a single peson thinks is Art becomes Art because it is Art to that one person no matter what anyone else thinks.

    It is a subjective subject and not a matter of being given a 'label' by someone who is 'qualified' to give it that label!!

    Therefore if I think it is Art and my son thinks it is Art then it is Art. Other people can describe it as 'just a child's picture' and that is fine as it is subjective.

    We are talking about this because you told us that we are not qualified to decide if something is Art or not where we are saying that everyone is qualified.

    Andy
     
  5. Aquadream

    Aquadream Guest

    Andy, I have not told anything to anyone. I have only shared my opinion for which I was cut to pieces.
    I can understand that no one likes to be told whatever, that is why I do not ever do that.
    Even if my opinion sounds absolute, what is giving to anybody the impression that I am trying to tell to others what to think or what to decide? I have never done that.
    All I said was that I am a qualified person only to answer this provocative statement.
    "So, since you obviously fall into this category by your own definition, what weight does your opinion on art then have?"
    If you remember before my post was deleted all I did was telling where the weight of my opinion comes from.

    It could be more diplomatic to ask who is the person one is talking to before going into any sharp disagreements and challenging statements.

    I can also see that mentioning diplomas and qualifications stirs problems here. I will not do that again.
    But since the discussion was about art would you not benefit from someone who have actually dedicated his life to that or just make him shut up?

    Everyone is free to define matters in their own way and accepting that others may have different opinion is only a sign for higher level of intellectual development.

    I hope there is no problem here.
     
  6. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Nope what you said was:

    Here I see many posts about art.
    There is one fundamental truth about this.
    Real art can be spotted and well evaluated by a naturaly born artist only. Someone who got the insides for it. Ther rest of the men can only put down definitions, opinions, write articles perhaps, but they do not know and they can never know the very essense of art. Only see and make comments on the outer shell.


    Maybe this has translated badly but to me and many others you are saying that only certain people have the credibility to evaluate the art and the rest is just an opinion. You are separating people's opinions into those who matter and the rest is just blah blah. That is untrue as Art is fluid and everyone's opinion matters no matter how simple or complicated the language they use to describe their opinion. there are no border lines between those who are 'insiders' and those who are outsiders.

    What I was implying is that if I went to the gallery and asked 100 people their opinion that would be much more credible to me than asking 2 experts who would more than likely give me the same cliche's they use to describe every piece of Art. I don't these people are better at evaluating art. they are just taught how to talk about it and that to me makes their opinion worth less than the man who speaks from his own tongue about his own thoughts. The TV pundits and art critics tend to speak about what someone else has taught them to speak about. They have been taught someone else's opinions. Pretty similar to the 'peer pressure to conform' within this hobby. They maintain the line so they are not castigated as an outsider or told they are crazy for not saying the same as the rest of the 'in club'.

    See above. You are saying we have opinions but they are not worthy as we are not insiders.

    Again you are now suggesting that we should make different arguments to different people dependent on who they are. If that were to happen we immediately make an admission we are below the person we have changed our line of speech to.

    Far from this we should speak as we do the same to each and every person. Not try and speak down to some and up to others.

    I think you have a problem in that you can't see why I/we have gotten upset here.

    Yes it is a benefit to speak to people who have studied a subject. This is how we can learn. not just meaning that the person who has studied has more knowledge but they may have different knowledge, different understandings etc. Yes they will know more of some things which we can add to our own knowledge.

    However it is very unhelpful if the mentality of the person who has studied says I have studied this. You should listen to me. I know more than you

    You didn't say it in those words above, but the first statement that I have quoted in red at the top of this post is what has set the last 2 pages of upset 'outsiders'.

    I have no problem with people being more qualified than me. However if someone says I am wrong and they are right and tries to say I have the qualification so you must accept you are wrong then that will stir things up. It is not a jealousy of the qualification. It is just the way that the qualification has been used as a way of trying to tell someone to shut up and listen. It is a very inflammatory thing and should never be done. lol

    We are all equals in life. Many unqualified people have huge and vast knowledge. In many cases more than those who are qualified. This isn't a problem until those who are qualified flaunt their qualification and use it as a weapon to demean and silence others.

    This is the best statement you have made however it contradicts all your previous statements. If you followed your own words here and had taken this tone from the start of this thread we would still be on 5 or 6 pages and be admiring 'Art' still :)

    So the post I have highlighted in red above 'defines' what you actually think. When you are not being diplomatic and say what you really think and that is what has turned this thread a little heated!!! Art is very powerful but words maybe even more so!!!

    I see this kind of attitude regularly on the forums. Someone asks for help. They are told how to sort the problem. they say no that's not going to sort it. they are told it will. It goes back and forth until it comes to the 'No you are wrong it will not sort my problem. I know I studied this at Uni. To which the answer 'Sort your algae problem out on your own then'

    It happens all the time.

    I am the only high school leaver of all my friends. They are all Uni educated with 2 or more degrees each however, when they talk I listen, when I talk they listen. We have disagreements but they never push a qualification in my face. Nor do they dismiss my unqualified opinions. We are equals and we accept each others opinions and statements with equal credence.

    Andy
     
  7. ShadowMac

    ShadowMac Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm curious what type of review your son's painting would get if it had a particular well known name attached to it? I like the picture by the way...he has some talent!

    The first time I had the discussion about urinal in the art show, I joked that it was the artist playing a joke on the "high class, high culture" society who would claim it was art and make statements about what it meant to each other. Meanwhile the artist would laugh at their proposed theories on the pieces statement about modern art. Ironically, by doing that it would have made a statement.

    Interestingly, as well, the professor of the class in which this discussion took place, had a phd in art and literature. He contested all things could be considered art within the proper context. So again, no matter ones qualifications, it is subjective.
     
  8. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Its funny really. When I read the 'The picture of your son is not any form of art. It is just a childs picture.' I thought to myself if it had been painted by an adult what is it then?

    Can it be something different when painted by an adult or is it exactly the same no matter who or what or why it was painted?

    For me personally the urinal, the unmade bed, the stuffed sheep are not at all Art.....to me. If someone else considers it so and pays $$$ for it as such then so be it.

    As for the blank piece of canvas (or painted completely white) The same......however if anyone wants one I can suply these at $40k each :)

    Andy
     
  9. J House

    J House Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe there is something to the expression that "Art is in the eye of the beholder". I think anything could be art to someone. Would be impossible to draw a line and define what is art and what isn't and who is qualified to judge said piece as art.

    I believe a great artist can draw more people to his work in the same way a great actor does or a great futball player, etc.

    Amano was an artist first I believe in photography. Many of us have stated that we got into this hobby after seeing his work. Would it have been possible without his artistry with the camera? Would he have been able to communicate the beauty and art side of this hobby without his skill as a photographer (artist).
     
  10. youjettisonme

    youjettisonme Aspiring Aquascaper

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    I think there may have been a little bit about your take that was lost in translation. However, I will add this...

    Everyone is indeed free to "define matters on their own" UNLESS the way they define matters is to say that no one else is also afforded that luxury. On the one hand you state that you should be free to define art any way you would like to define it, and yet your very premise is that others are not allowed to do that, are not qualified, are not "true artists", and don't know what they're talking about because they do not possess the proper credentials.

    Did you get how your reasoning is circular and turns right back on itself? You cannot argue that you have the rights that you will not willingly afford others in the same breath.

    In this last sentence, I assume that you are referring to yourself when you use the phrase, "sign of a higher level of intellectual development", but the reasoning you employ here isn't at all present in your original post that I took exception with. In that premise, you just expounded on the theory that there is a right way and a wrong way, and that only some people's opinion matters. Others, minus the proper credentials, carry no weight.
     
  11. Aquadream

    Aquadream Guest

    Supercoley1 and youjettisonme. What is wrong with you guys? If you are so intolerant to other opinions you should not be posting on forums.
    I have said what I wanted to say in the most calm and respectful way and will not tolerate this debate butchery.

    Youjettisonme. Do you realise that this time instead of been Aspiring aquascaper you became a firestarter? And for what?

    All you are doing here is trying to fill the empty from the hollow.

    Keep busy with that. Some of us have more important matters to attend to.
     
  12. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    This is exactly what we are saying. We are tolerant of others opinions. We are not the ones that are saying you have to have the qualification, the knowledge of studying the subject to be able to evaluate something as Art.

    That is what you are saying. It is you that is intolerant of anyone's opinion unless they fit the bill.

    Again the statement below is the problem here. You cannot say this in a thread or anywhere and then change your tone to we should all be tolerant of others opinions. We are tolerant of opinions but not of this statement:

    With this statement you set the tone. You exposed what you really believe and therefore have shown your beliefs. That Art (or any subject matter) can only be truly evaluated by the expert, by the Connoisseur. That if you do not fall into this bracket then your evaulation is mere words with no meaning and no value.

    As for 'aspiring aquascapers. I believe I am a good aquascaper. I like my work. Many others like my work. More do not like my work but does that mean it is not good work?

    More a case IMO that it does not tick the boxes of what the majority like, or it doesn't fit within the fashion of the moment, or that it strays outside of the 'accepted' style and unwritten rules of what is good. That is fine by me. If a journal of mine has 5 people saying that a scape of mine is their favourite ever scape it doesn't matter to me that they are not competition high rollers. It doesn't matter to me if they are total newbies. I have made it for me and it is great that someone else enjoys, evaluates and says with no fear on a public platform that they love it.

    That is what Art is about. Not that we should listen to the critics and then like what they like because they know and we don't. It is about each person have their own opinion and all opinions being equal.

    Anything other than that and we live in a world where pomposity rules and those with the knowledge sneer at the uneducated. In that world Art dies because the critics are not the ones that give Art credence. It is the multiple individual opinions that give the credence.

    Like someone said Good art makes people talk about it. Get a great piece of Art put 10 critcis in there ask them to talk about it. The first will roll off all the cliches they have been taught. The other 9 wlil say 'we agree' then they will all decide to go to the Ivy for a slap up meal and champers.

    Get 10 'uneducated' people and they will all have different opinions and it will be a real debate. May well turn into a shouting match followed by a punch up but at least they all have their own opinons :)


    I think we can say this is both true and falseso let me explain what I mean.

    For Van Gogh, PIcasso, rembrandt, Degar, Monet etal. Painters of older generations this is true. The talent draws the crowd.

    For the newer era of modern art hype and media play their part far too much. In the case of Damian Hirsts stuffed sheep nobody had ever seen or heard of it. Then the media got involved pushing the 'is it art or not'. everybody got in on the act. The critics (with their usual one voice) all acclaimed it publicly with the same opinons as each other.

    It got huge publicity, everybody went to see it. Without that hype and media then I doubt it would have done so.

    With Tracy Emin's 'Unmade bed' a similar thing really.

    With the 2 above is it the actual piece that is Art? I would suggest not. so what is it about them that could even be considered Art?

    For me not a lot. I suspect many people these days just choose an item. Then they decide what they should try and say it means. That is poetry and that is the only Artform I can find with these sort of works.

    Modern Art tends to be much of a word machine, a spiel of sound bites that the 'artist' applies to the meaning of whateber they use as a subject.

    Maybe Aquadream is right and as an unqualified person I do not have the ability to understand it. The cynical or skeptical side of me though suggests that it all began as chancer's trying to make money and they have drawn in people with their use of vocabulary when portraying the meaning of such works.

    Then in fear of being seen as wrong all the critics and connoisseurs speak with one single voice in acclaim much as the king's courtiers back in the day for fear they would be sent to the tower!!!

    Andy
     
  13. Aquadream

    Aquadream Guest

    Andy all of this "artistry" you are bubbling against me is not doing any credit to your work as an aquascaper. It will be better if you sqare up a new tank rather than going into pointless debates you can not win.
     
  14. youjettisonme

    youjettisonme Aspiring Aquascaper

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    Andy isn't trying to win a debate. Andy is having a conversation about art. Although I realize that your elitist take is that he shouldn't even be allowed to have an opinion about art because he's not "a true artist", thankfully, your opinion isn't the only one that counts here.

    Where is he having this conversation? In the off-topic forum known as the "The Aqua Lounge". He does not need to discuss a new tank build in an off-topic forum as you suggest. His words are perfectly relevant and just as welcome. I am not surprised that you've expressed your desire to make him "hush" though. Attempting to silence a dissenter is usually what someone will do when they are on the wrong side of a debate as you must feel you are here. Or, like you have done before, just may just resort to ad hominem phrases like you've employed toward both of us now, and several times. When you can't make an eloquent point, just go after the person himself! In that regard, you are displaying a true artistry of which anyone could admire. Your efficiency in ad hominems is rivaled only by your apparent ability to condescend.

    This thread is called "Art Debate", and if you're engaging in it, I'd suggest that you not talk about your latest tank and instead stick to the subject matter rather then try to derail it.

    re: art. Everyone has an opinion. If that weren't true, or worse, if people weren't allowed to express that opinion, art itself would cease to be very compelling, and in turn lose it's dignity and its inherent value. Aquascaping by its nature is an artistic endeavor, and it always will be. I will continue to appreciate those who strive to express themselves artistically, whether a particular piece inspires me or not, and you can continue to raise your nose at those you deem beneath you, or those who you feel have dragged their brush in vain.

    In any case, the aquascaping community in general is one of the most kind, most generous communities of which I've ever been a part. I appreciate so much the efforts employed, and the otherworldly comaraderie that I experience not only on a messageboard like this, but also with my friends, my girlfriend, and my local aquatic plant club in San Francisco.
     
  15. Aquadream

    Aquadream Guest

    Yes I can see that. It seems you have this experience, because while you are trumpeting all this rubbish no one oposes you and they generously lend an ear out of fear that you going to crush them down with your perfect and flawless logic.

    Geez man, you can open your own uiversity and teach people how to master verbal slaughter skills.BoxingSurely you must have a masters degree on that.
    Now, can you please offer something better here to talk about other than your verbal goodies.
    I am not trying to silence anyone here. How could I?
    Just cut the chase after me. You are not going to catch anything.
     
  16. ghostsword

    ghostsword Aspiring Aquascaper Staff Member

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    Been following the thread with some interest and I would have to say that elitism is the death of this hobby of ours.

    Art I everything we call art. Do you think that van gogh and others were seen as artists at their time?

    My kids paint and draw everyday, got the walls covered with their work and I call that art.

    You and others may call it kids drawing, but I call it art and art it is, even if just on my own eyes.

    Now about aquascaping competitions, the judges must follow a set of rules to judge a scape, and it is those rules that will give points and allow someone to win.

    The issue it seems is that we are all from different cultures. Some cultures are more free to make judgements and others are conditioned to look up to others first. I am Portuguese, and in Portugal there are two classes of people. The ones that say what is art and the others that will say yes to all they see.

    Since coming to the uk that veil was taken from my eyes and now I see the folly of those actions.

    Art is everything we say art is, easy to follow and remember.


    ---
    - .
     
  17. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Aquadream. It is quite obvious that you are a very clever person. That you are an intellectual. For a poster from Bulgaria your English Language skill are exceptional and I am sure that you have the intellect to understand what we are saying and therefore I assume that you are trying to play the card of misunderstanding.

    We are not trying to shoot you down. We are not the aggressors. The problem is not your posts as such. We can accept criticism, we can accept others tastes. It was that singular statement that I have quoted twice that has set this debate on this path. Anything else was taken as opinion however that single post that you seem to have forgotten with your statements since making it cannot be retracted. That single post was what offends the majority of us who are not qualified nor intellectual.

    From an outsider looking in the IAPLC thread started with people showing off their scapes. happy or not with their ranking they accepted it. Your posts throughout were made with the intent to discredit others work, criticise their ranking or their validity to reach such ranking.

    I can see you are not happy with your ranking but you must accept it. If not then do not enter competitions and let your peers alone make judgement on your scapes. That would cause you less trauma as your perrs give a simple judgement that does not comprise a number. It comprises descriptives that are given to scapes no matter whether they would reach top 100 or top 1000.

    You are very useful as a member to us. We can learn from your knowledge, we can even feel good if you give praise. However we cannot take any positives from being told we are not worthy. So please debate Art, please show people your work. Please accept compliments and criticism equally about your work but do not then retaliate by telling us we are wrong because we are unable to know how to evaluate something.

    Art is visual. The evaulation becomes verbal or physical. Everybody's eyes and mind can evaluate equally as each otheras it is an opinion. No qualification needed. It is from there that the problem arises in that when we turn that evaluation into vocabulary some cannot express as eloquently as others. That does not mean their evaulation is worthless. It means they describe their thoughts in their own words. The intellectual describes their evaulation in eloquent almost poetic ways. Sometimes with many cliches which to my eyes destroys their evaulation as those cliches are not their own thoughts. They are someone else's

    Now you have many hours to reply as I am going out now to view my latest original creation. A piece very special to me and not copied by any other. A creation that is unique and noone else can copy it.

    The work in question? My 4 day old daughter who is still in the maternity wing of the hospital with her mother :)

    Now that is what I call Art.....Beauty and Originality all in one living organism.

    Andy
     
  18. Aquadream

    Aquadream Guest

    Try to go with this wisdom to any art accademy and see if you gona get even the entry tests.
    And by the way it was the ELITE aquascapes from Amano, which started and shaped this aquascaping hobby not this logic you guys are shreding here.
    It is easy to be a king in your own living room, and behind the pc screen, but what matters is what you guys can demonstrate and proof out in the open. Beyond that is only chase after the wind.
     
  19. Aquadream

    Aquadream Guest

    Andy I wish you did not post such long messages so that we can actually have a discussion on the topic.

    Regarding the IAPLC 2011 you are right. I am not happy about the score , not just mine but for many others too and I know very well why. Do you?
    The fact that matters is that the last IAPLC was a fars. ADA have favoured number of aquascapes against their own regulations, which are published in the IAPLC web site. How can I be happy when ADA them selves do not keep to the rules they put down for the whole world to follow. That fact translates in only one way - Corruption.
    But you do not seem to have any idea about this facts.
    I am older than you and I have with 28 years of aquatic experience against your 5. So please do not try to patronise me. It is ugly, inappropriate and very stupid.

    My first art post you are talking about I have not forgotten and I stand for it. It is my believe based on life experience and education.
    Any challenging statements on that matter are no different than Christians chasing Muslims or people from one religious denomination chasing people from another.
    I have not challenged anybody here, nor have I said anything personal.
    And the last thing I want is breathless fights.

    I wish before you took everything I said so personal that you have simply asked what is that I am talking about.
    Instead I see you and your gang friend from USA to say often; I assume, I want to add, it translates and so on and so forward, which well means you both are twisting everything I say to serve your small cause. That is very low.
    Before you assume, add or translate, ASK. IT HELPS A LOT.


    I really got severely borred with this crap, so I asked the admins of this forum to delete my account.
    That way I am not going to be able to answer and you are going to be the king in your own living room.
     
  20. Supercoley1

    Supercoley1 Moderator Staff Member

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    you shoudl talk about art not how old you are or how long you have been trying to be No1 in competitions. Experience can equal wisdom but not necessarily.

    After all I would suggest people who have won or at least been top 27 from IAPLC have been in the hobby much less than me :) That is a chep shot and along the same lines of the qualification statements.

    You seem to think that time and study. i.e. Age, time in the hobby, qualification all equal superiority which is just not true.

    Anyway if you no longer want to post on this subject choose to do so. Have you no will power to resist replying otherwise? Such an intellectually superior and qualified mind must surely have the ability to resist the lure of the keyboard.

    Anyway I will be quiet. I must wait another 20 years beore I can suggest I know anything about the hobby!!!

    Andy
     

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