RO = Stability?

[riverrat]

I often wonder how many people use RO to create a stable water chemistry that allows them a rock solid platform to concentrate more on aquascapes. Who all uses RO/DI?

I could fit this in many threads that have been started but thought it deserved its own seeing how I have not seen it discussed here. Stability seems to be one of my challenges. Things will go great for several weeks and all is well only to seem to crash just enough to throw me backward a bit. I often wonder if I have done to big of a water change and parameters have fallen off just enough to throw one or two species of plants in my tank into a moody discontent. I seem to be able to run a tank and rid it of algae no problem. I have what seems to be a fairly steady local water supply. My KH is usually close to 2 and my GH comes in around 8 to 11. Sometimes Gh may creep up a bit more or down just a tad. I am not one to test much. I gave that up long ago. I like to watch my plants. I know when they are not happy. My dosing and co2 are stable within reason. Tap seems to be the only variable left.

I have been chasing a stability problem for months thinking it was GH. Calcium or Mg problems. It might be. I am now thinking it is more Kno3 based or lack there of.

But I all to often think that if I brewed my own water that the control would be that much better. Does a GH of 5 make that much difference to plants compared to a GH of 11 or 12. Do fluctuations of several degrees of hardness after a water change affect plants in a detrimental way?

Is this one of the keys people use in having a tanks that always seem to be solid performers or do they just not take snapshots when their local water department has thrown a slider their way?

I have a small 30 gallon and have had it for 2 years now. I have had great success and disaster in the last couple years. I am in the planning stages of moving up to a 18inch wide tank sometime this year. Before I do I want to just once pull everything together at once in this tank. Eight out of ten species being vibrant and healthy will not cut it. I want a ten for ten before I upgrade.

Does the stability of RO/DI make you more successful?


Dave

[Brian]

I use water that pass through 3 filters of the RO "reject water" is not that pure like All Ro water but it is good for aquarium, low Gh, Kh, Ph drop from 8.0 to 7.6, 0 nitrogen compounds, 0 clorine, its good and balance my aquarium very well I use acid buffer to low the ph to 6.6

[AnneMarie]

I cannot answer most of your questions, because I am new to planted tanks; but I will say since I have started using RO water I have not had as many fluctuations in my water column.

I can understand your desire to have complete success. I started using RO about two years ago, I was new to fish keeping and didn't know much about water chemistry. After having a mass extinction event after a routine water change I started looking for answers. My local water is liquid concrete, and there are seasonal variations in it as well. After much experimentation I know what works for me, my fish and now my plants are much healthier. And I have a greater success rate.

[riverrat]

Thanks for the input.

Brian,
You mean you use the waste water from the RO? I would think it would be high in readings of GH? no?


Anne,
I was not really looking for answers to all of my questions. I was rather trying to open a discussion about using RO/DI and if it is worth it for the sake of steady parameters. With 41 views I was hoping more would chime in. From people who have to use it for success and from those who started using it for more control of their water parameters. I also hoped to here from those who said they have no need for it because they can grow anything the want even down to the species that people claim you need soft water for.


thanks,

[goalcreas]

I use pure RO several weeks after the start of a new tank.
When the tank is new, I know that I will do many daily or every other day water changes, so it seems silly to waste the RO water, so I run my hose thru a charcoal filter to remove the chlorine (convert) an some other impurities while doing on average every other day clean up and water changes. Once the plants have acclimated and stopped melting leaves and showing any die off, I then start to change out about 20% of the tank water with PURE RO about every 3 days and from then on out, it is PURE RO into the tanks with every water change. I have been using ADA Green gain and Green Bacter into the RO make up water and dose with Pfertz Micros every other day. This is a recent change from dosing with the full line of Pfertz and the new additions of the ADA products, but the RO has been steady for about 18 months and I feel the stability benefits are HUGE and well worth the initial investment of the product.
Plus I now have drinking water right out of my sink top and I have a line with ball valve right under my sink that I fill all my nano tanks directly from and fill up my 5 gallon sparklets bottles for my water cooler. Plus we cook with it and fill the ice trays. I do have a permeate pump on mine so if I ever get a fridge with an ice maker and in door water / ice dispenser, I am set.

[ERiK]

I have used RO in all my tanks for the last couple of years. I find that the most important factor in an algae free, lush planted tank is tank maturity. As the tank matures I have fewer algae problems. This has to do with stability, but nothing to do with RO.
Every plant goes through a cycle of nutrient uptake. When its stores are full you may have a nutrient spike in the water column resulting in algae. This may be the reason why you get unpredictable algae blooms. Personally my dosing strategy is variable in relation to biomass, algae, and tank maturity. In essence, I try to maintain stability in the water column by varying what I put into it since plants vary their uptake.

[riverrat]

RO has been steady for about 18 months and I feel the stability benefits are HUGE and well worth the initial investment of the product.

This is why I am considering going to RO and maybe even RO/DI. I know it isn't required because I can grow plants but I want to see if it will help me get to the next level by offering me more control of my waters parameters.

This may be the reason why you get unpredictable algae blooms

I am not looking for RO to cure algae problems at all. I really do not have algae problems. Occasionally I may get few tufts of bba if I let my co2 go unchecked. If I stir up a lot on rescaping....replanting I might see gda rare its nastiness for a couple weeks but I have learned to control algae. Maybe manage is a better word. My tank is not always algae free but it is never a problem I can not correct.

I think my problem for the last few months has been a shortage of KNO3. I have up my dosage and have seen a good response. I am still intrigue by going RO/DI.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by riverrat

Thanks for the input.

Brian,
You mean you use the waste water from the RO? I would think it would be high in readings of GH? no?

I have less Gh because before the water enter the RO unit it was pre filter with a Resin to make soft water (lowers Calcium and Magnesium), Sediment and Activated Carbon. Thats why the water is low Gh.

[waterfaller1]

I was losing shrimp & fish until I started using RO in my fw tanks. I use the RO/DI for the reefs. I also have a double carbon & double DI. My TDS is always at 0 for the RO/DI, and probably about 6-7 PPM with just RO.

[Dan Pellegrini]

I use pure RO and add back the Ca/Mg with Seachem Equilibrium. This allows me completely control of what is in my water. I found the tap to be a mixed bag - who knows what the city is doing with the water and when? I also gave up testing long ago. IMO RO is well worth it. Of course I use RO/DI for my Nano Reef and a Drinking adapter for RO drinking water - the more you can use it for, the quicker the payoff.

check out the Typhoon III Extreme from AirWaterIce.com if you are in the market. I love mine

[mrkookm]

This allows me completely control of what is in my water.

This is the main reason why I use RO/DI water as well so that I can maintain optimal water quality

[BryceM]

I started using RO in an attempt to control a horrible algae mess in a new 180g tank. It worked (or something did). I'm still using it now because it allows me to set the GH & KH wherever I want it. It's much easier to keep a wider variety of plant species. Tetras are my favorite fish and this matches their natural habitat better too. Necessary? No. Helpful. Yes, most of the time.

If stability is what you're after then I suggest automating as much as possible. For me, at least, life get's busy. When it does, daily fert dosing, water changes, and even feeding the fish sometimes gets neglected. Do this for a few days in a row and the tank can fall out of balance rather quickly. If WC's are a major PITA you'll find reasons not to do them, etc., etc. This is especially true for big setups.

Timers, dosing pumps, pH controllers, and built-in plumbing leave more time for 'scaping. It's nice to just sit back and enjoy the tank once in a while too!

[plantbrain]

I've used it for drinking water, however, if does not matter unless you want to address high/low KH issues.

Folks have claimed it was needed, was extremely useful etc from decades since the LFS started selling it.

I've never used it nor suggested it. I've had no related issues due to not using RO, and that's with an extreme range of tap water sources over the years.
It's not needed for plants and it's not why you solved your algae issues.

It might be useful to you in your mind, but it's a large hassle/cost in my mind and I know I do not need it. If I have hard KH and want to keep some Erios etc, I'll use it, or want to breed some fish etc.
But not for 99% of the plants and certainly not because of algae.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[BryceM]

Strange, Tom, but I mostly agree with you. I know it wasn't responsible for solving the algae issues, but I had recently moved from an area of very soft water (Massachusetts). RO allowed me to get back to a water chemistry that I was familiar and comfortable with. Perhaps that allowed me to hit on the right balance of light, CO2, and ferts more easily.

For 90% of people I think it's much easier to use whatever comes out of the tap and adjust your fish and plant selections accordingly. Nutrient defeciencies are always a worry when reconstituting and it's certainly more expensive.

For me, though, it sure makes it easier to grow the "hard" species.

[plantbrain]

Familiarity is a big trade off plus for using RO.
My thing is dealing with as many of the trade offs as I can think up vs the results.

Nothing is black/white, so you have 2 votes for, 5 against etc.
Which of these are more important to you and your goal is arbitrary, a choice you make.

However, you might take this opportunity to learn about hard water systems rather than fear the hard water, hehe. I'm joking a bit here.

But the point about learning to deal with a different tap is a good learning process. In the SF bay, we have a dozen different tap water supplies that vary all over the board. That gave the club a lot of power for comparison.

I had "magic water", KH was 5-6, Gh 8-10, and PO4 was 1.2ppm.
They had nearly RO levels in SF, liquid rock from San Jose and everything in between.

I've gone from 1 Gh to 24, 1.2 KH to 12 KH over time.
I like softer water as it allows me to harden things up if I want and with a few species I can have a less troublesome time.

But it's a lot of work when the tap works well..........
So unless I want softer KH's, I really see no need.

Stability, well, if the KH changes and you monkey with it and do not test after making that batch, that can lead to a lot more work and testing, just for a water change, just to provide more a stability, when simply doing a water changes with the tap water you have might be much "more stable".

It's certainly much less motivation to use tap than RO for a water changes, so the human factor must also be considered.

Then your goals, is it worth it to have a few species of wimpy low KH plants vs a nice tank that's easier to take care of and does not waste 90% of the rejection water?

I can change my plant choices very easily, we have over 300 specie to pick from, why force myself to grow a few species and incur all the hassle of RO when I can hard plumb a water changer?

That said, I had a large massive RO tank added to two different clients(one was for a reef though), so they can have the same water changes as a normal tap water user might want.

I turn a valve and the tank drains, turn another, and the tank fills with the RO or pre mixed salt water.

A little forethought and engineering and you can avoid many of the trade offs, but you have to spend time and money to get the initial system set up, but from then on, you are easy street.

Water changes can be automated, this is true for RO systems and the make up water, but you need to provide the space for it.

I added a large cistern for the waste rejection water for one client's 700 gallon RO tank, this water is used to irrigate the landscape.

The client adds no KH at all to the tank.
For CO2, I am adding a CO2 dissolved meter that relies on neither KH nor pH to measure CO2.

So none of that matters, the trade offs: cost a lot of $$$.
But the system is going to be as stable as it gets.

So I'm on both sides of the fence, but I use the tap at home, always will.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Bert H]

...I can change my plant choices very easily, we have over 300 specie to pick from, why force myself to grow a few species...

But, that's the nature of most of us. Although I agree with you, Tom, I think it's human nature to want what you can't necessarily easily get, so folks look to soften their water so they can grow the Eriocaulons, Toninas, etc. With my liquid rock from my well, I gave up a while ago, and decided I have plenty of other plants to choose from.

[plantbrain]

Yes, you learn to deal with the other pretty species.

This is not something you can generalize, RO water does not offer you any more stability that you are willing to put into the effort to maintain that stability.

I can put that same amount of effort into maintaining the stability of my tap water and check /test it often also.

While I've heard this whacky claim mostly from Reef folks and LFS claimig n that you need RO to prevent algae blooms, I've been using Tap all my life and in a few cases switched to RO, mostly to remove very high KH for certain plant species.

I've never once found anything remotely related to algae or stability other than my own lack of care.

Thus it had nothing to do with the water source.
Algae is not caused by lack of RO use.
It's caused by a lack of care or understanding.

RO taste good to me.
That's about all I use it for.

Still, if you have to deal with a tub full of rO water, hassle with makign a batch, waste 9X the water you change in brine rejection, spend the extra $, then pipe it to the tank etc, when if you had just used tap, that's a huge difference in motivation.

I'd be less likely to do that vs taking a garden hose and draining it and then refill. That means for the human factor, you'd be more likely to have a more stable tank using tap, not RO.

The human factor is huge in the hobby.
Ignoring that part and claiming it's the method is a very weak argument indeed.

That's like blaming the car for the accident.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[Danielle]

I just started using R/O water because the city changed something in the tap that turned it to aquarium poison. A routine weekly water change killed off the entire biological filter bed and sent fish gasping at the top and caused all kinds of nitrite spikes and white cloudy water and other mayhem. It didn't occur to me that it was the tap water until I did a small 1/2 gallon water change to bring the nitrites back down a bit and the instant the 'fresh' water hit the tank everything in it's path either died or crashed half dead. A good bit of my plants are dead as well.

I immediately deduced that it had to be the tap water and made an emergency trip to the LFS to get 10 gallons of R/O water and the chemicals to reconstitute it (equilibrium and alkaline buffer). I mixed it close to what the plants and fish were used to and slowly swapped about 60% of the poisoned tank water for R/O water 1/2 gallon at a time over the course of several hours. That was Weds afternoon (this all started on monday with the regular water change). Yesterday I did two more small water changes to get the R/O content up to about 80-90% and this morning when I woke up the nitrites were at 0, the water was crystal clear and the fish and shrimp are all normal and happy.

My 2nd tank (a 1g beta tank) had a water change on monday too. It didn't affect the beta quite as much as the fish in the other tank but now I'm noticing all his plants are starting to turn clear and die too so he is getting swapped to R/O today. I've already got half his water swapped out and he seems much more active and happy.

I don't think I'll ever use tap water again after this. I know the R/O water is expensive and so are the chemicals to reconstitute it. But after the nightmare I just went through it is more than worth it to me. Both my tanks are small (5.5g and 1g) so it's not 'that' big of a deal.... and I have the peace of mind now, knowing that the water I put in the tank is pure and won't kill my fish!

[waterfaller1]

Originally Posted by Danielle

I just started using R/O water because the city changed something in the tap that turned it to aquarium poison. !

Possible your city started using chloramines instead of chlorine? A quick phone call may give you the answer. Many are switching. They don't necessarily let you know this.

[Danielle]

Possible... but the water conditioners I use break down chloramines and ammonia (prime or novaqua+) *shrug*