Do you use Power Sand together with Aqua Soil?

[JEK]

As the title says... Do you use Power Sand together with Aqua Soil? Why? Why not?

[John N.]

I voted no. When Aquasoil and PowerSand first hit the market here in the US I tried the full system. I found the PowerSand mixed with the Aquasoil and got all over the place when I replanted and rescaped. I should note the mixing and messiness was due to me being new to scaping aquatic plants.

So after that, I decided to stick with Aquasoil (plain)...plant growth continued to be good and I don't notice missing the PowerSand. From my observation, I feel there is no need to purchase this additional substrate additive.

-John N.

[Norbert Sabat]

John i recomended this method:






Separation PS and Amazonia with plastic "mesh". I made in this tank 5layouts (in 1.5year) so far and no problem with substrat mix when replanted

[JEK]

Thats a good idea... I will try to find some plastic mesh.

[Anti-Pjerrot]

I will try to remember the trick with the plastic mesh.

[John N.]

Norbert, how do you deal with roots getting tangled into the mesh? Also, would your recommend having aquasoil + powersand? If so, why?

-John N.

[Norbert Sabat]

Well...

First of all..when i replanted tank i dont remove all plant from substat. Many times i cut roots 1cm above substrat....or I remove all plant - amazonia is enough heavy to put PS with mesh in place.

I don't know that PS is important - from the beggining play with ADA I use PS+Amazonia so I dont have experience with Amazonia only layout. I Think that water "moving" in botton is important so bigger substrat is better tnan smaller (sorry, i cant explain better in my poor english)....but from my experience i have same results from pure gravel than from ADA

[Roy Deki]

I used to use PS with AS but I too did not like how they will mix when uprooting a plant. I also re use all of my AS for new scape and having it mixed is very unsightly. I have not noticed any difference in plant growth with or without PS.

I will have to try Norbet's technique in the near future.

[plantbrain]

I have never found any difference I could discern between using Ps or not with ADA AS.


No one yet has shown it either...........

Lots of talk about it, mostly based on belief, nothing anyone could tell.
Which sounds a lot like another item that is still sold today: heating cables.....marketing, not horticulture..........
And the approach to measuring its effect on plants and roots is similar as with heat cables: redox and O2 probes.

Adding a screen and something that is questionable to begin with is troublesome, cost more and wasted space. It gets around the mesh when you pull roots up, but the real questions are why add something if it's really not needed, cost $, can be troublesome and you have extra space in the tank?

Does it really help like ADA AS?
I'm trying to be open minded but tank after tank I do with ADA As alone does very well. No different, no better than than the ones I did with PS.

I have to see some significant difference, something, to warrant the use and cost and trouble. If it's something really subtle, that we see over only long time frames......then by that very nature, it cannot be very significant....which is the same argument George Booth put forth in the 1990's with me about his support of heat cables. Why should I spend another 25-200$ for a tank(variation due to size) and deal with all this?
What do I really get out of it that's not based on belief?

I can see the differences between sand and or flourite vs ADA AS, many folks can with various species of plants. We also know that the ADA As has plenty of nutrients, same deal with PS. I think nutrients in the water column and the sediment work well together since plants will taken them from both places.

This gives the best of both methods/locations.
Why add more?
It's not for circulation (Same argument as Heat cables and dupla tried to claim and market and all the copy cats thereafter).

Seems ADA had PS prior to ADA AS, which was added to plain sand for more nutrients and worked there. After gaining some confidence to add a more reductive sediment with more clay and nutrients, (ADA AS), they kept PS as well and marketed along the same marketing ,method they used for Cables.

I've never once seen any low O2 related issues in any tank I've done, which is to say .....that is precisely what you'd expect to see(blackened roots etc, sulfur smell, poor growth, low redox/low O2) if you left the PS out.....

But no one has seen that to date I've read about anywhere or seen myself.
Even with 7-8" depths of pure ADA AS.

Anyone had an issue with just plain ADA AS?
I ask where's the evidence to support the claim?
Not "Well I use PS and AS together and it works........"
That does not answer the question nor support the claim.
Obviously other things go into growing plants besides a sediment, most folks realize that and still have not had any issues.
Where's the effectiveness with using AS+PS vs ADA AS alone?

I just do not see it and it's not from a lack of testing, a lack of experience with the tanks, new set ups or various plant species, number of tanks done, root inspections and so forth. The O2 levels are lower initially in the water column and sediment, but any sediment with OM will have lower initial levels of O2 and redox. The larger grain sizing in ADA AS allows plenty of O2 to exchange so it does not get too low.

Over time, this layer will clog with broken down AS or mulm, but a little light Vacuuming, or uprooting frees up the AS and keeps the circulation good(Ps will not unclog or help this however). Plant roots also pump a lot more O2 into the sediment after they get growing well and we can see the tank balance about this time also. They act like pipes from above.
This is how they grow in entirely anaerobic conditions in the natural systems.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[JEK]

Tom, do you have any experience if PS makes any difference when using ADA´s line of fertilizers? They don´t contain N and P (except Special Shade and Specal Lights) so I was thinking if PS would help Aqua Soil from running out of nutrients?

[Roy Deki]

From what I can tell PS is coated with a lot of stuff, whether it can retain nutrients? I don't know. It turns pure white shortly after use and this is why I think it's just coated.

[Anti-Pjerrot]

I only bought it for something bigger, so i could ad some hight. It may not be better than just AS alone, but for some reason i felt like getting the stuff.

Im not sure it does anything better than just plain AS, but never the less i felt like trying it, and if it works fine, i might try without.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by JEK

Tom, do you have any experience if PS makes any difference when using ADA´s line of fertilizers? They don´t contain N and P (except Special Shade and Specal Lights) so I was thinking if PS would help Aqua Soil from running out of nutrients?

Not over time, the main thing is NO3 that is the difference between the two.
Ps has more NO3, which will not bind(which is why it is an issue for the ground water due to leaching, it does not bind to soil) thus diffuses out into the water column slowly.

I do not imagine it would last more than a few weeks, mostly for the start up phase only. There after, bacterial surface area is about all, but we can add KNO3 and any old high surface area, say like Zeosand, which is much cheaper and we know it has high CEC and binds NH4 which the roots can then take up.

ADA AS has a lot more nutrients per volume than PS does, a lot more and it last a lot longer FYI. Additionally, based on the above, you can prdedict which has a higher CEC also: the ADA AS clay.

You can reduce the draw from the sediment by adding ferts to the water column also. Then it last longer and the plants have the best of both worlds, getting plenty from either source and taking the pressure off both the sediment and the water column regarding our doing routines, bad habits etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Regards,
Tom Barr

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Roy Deki

From what I can tell PS is coated with a lot of stuff, whether it can retain nutrients? I don't know. It turns pure white shortly after use and this is why I think it's just coated.

You can measure the CEC of the Ps vs the AS.
Big difference.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[JEK]

Thanks for the answer Tom.

[StanChung]

I thought it prevented soil compacting and specifically designed for Echinodorus, Cryptocorynes and other heavy root feeders. IMHO not useful for 3 month-6month rescapers.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by StanChung

I thought it prevented soil compacting and specifically designed for Echinodorus, Cryptocorynes and other heavy root feeders. IMHO not useful for 3 month-6month rescapers.

Have you or anyone else ever had compaction issues and how would you know vs the fact when the these plants grow, they really really grow, it might not have anything to do with the sediment vs simply not having enough nutrients when there is 100X more plant biomass by dry weight?

A large sword plant will suck out nutrients like no other.
When plants grow over 3-6-12 months, what occurs?

Kind of a basic question, but extremely relevant here.
Have you ever done a Cross section of a sword root or a Crypt Root?
Take a look sometime and see how much aerenchymenous tissue they have, it's like an air pipe pumping O2 down there.

This is issue is not compaction or O2 transport due to grain sizes, this does not occur in natural systems either........

Plants easily and handily add their own O2, and the above two groups are highly aggressive root producers and send daughter plants off these as well.

While large root systems make some assume they must take in their nutrients from the sediments or prefer it, I've grown virtually every species to a very high level in plain old sand with water column ferts...........

I have countless examples there............

However, like most plants, they will take in nutrients from either location, water column or sediment. Adding ferts to both places is the best solution.
This supplies a back in case you run out of stop adding water column ferts, many assume less is better when it comes to nutrients, which is counter to everything agricultural. Of course better = higher growth rates.

Which is why you would add something like PS to a planted tank.
If it does not increase rates of growth, then do not add it.

If you wish to reduce rates of growth or control them, use lighting reduction, this reduces demand for CO2 as well as all nutrients and is far more stable and adjustable than nutrients or CO2. It alos reduces algae growth as well. From an aesthetic horticulture perspective, this makes much more sense and it can be measured, the PS?
I'd challenge someone to show it.
It's based on the same poppy cock as heat cables.
At least PS adds some nutrients. Which if you do not add any to the water column, will help vs not adding nutrients.
If you do add ferts to the water column, then there's a better result(more biomass).

Ferts are ferts, adding them so there is enough to provide non limiting growth is the key if you what to compare one product vs a control.
If something is really better for plant growth, then you will assume more plant biomass = better. Sure there are other methods to control rates of growth, but ADA certainly uses light more than anything else.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[J House]

I think based on the discussion it's evident that plants will grow just fine using a base of pure AS and one with the PS additive (I have done both) but are there lifestyle advantages to using PS. In other words does it give one more flexiblity to not dose religiously if their lifestyle doesn't afford them to do so and still maintain a thriving tank that contains healthy growing plants and an algae-free tank in the long run. Products that allow aquarists this flexibility IMO will be of great value in spreading the hobby out further.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by J House

I think based on the discussion it's evident that plants will grow just fine using a base of pure AS and one with the PS additive (I have done both) but are there lifestyle advantages to using PS. In other words does it give one more flexiblity to not dose religiously if their lifestyle doesn't afford them to do so and still maintain a thriving tank that contains healthy growing plants and an algae-free tank in the long run. Products that allow aquarists this flexibility IMO will be of great value in spreading the hobby out further.

Then add osmocoat, lots cheaper and not as messy.
There are many simple cheap effective alternatives to giving ADA your wallet.

As far as dosing religiously, heck, that's easy and simple, it's the frequent water changes for that first few weeks that's the lifestyle issue for myself and others.

I addressed that doing the DSM.
Lots more labor saving than PS.

You have lots of options if this is just a "lifestyle difference".
Osmocoat will also release nutrients far longer than PS.

I've gotten back the results from the soils test. The NO3 really is not something that binds, so adding KNO3 would do a similar thing when you start up the tank as well.
And no mess.
Just like paying 10$ a bottle for KNO3 in a bottle from a name brand.
I can get 10lbs of KNO3 for that. Why would you do this if you know and understand you can DIY for much less or not bother and have the same if not better results?
Sorry, I just do not get it.

Algae issues are not from dosing, they tend to be centered around CO2 and too much light, not enough biomass. PS is not going to offer alternatives there, nor prevent them from doing the religious labor intensive water changes.

You claim it does, what do you base this on?
I do not have more or less algae with or without.
Did you?
ADA AS has a lot of nutrients as well.
Do not believe me?
Then how did the HC grow in my 180 gal tank to the massive rug?
Water and ADA AS. No algae, no water changes, no work/labor, no ADA PS.

Where's this added lifestyle alternative benefit versus say osomocoat?
Which is about 200X cheaper per unit of nutrient........and less messy and is widely available without ship/ordering etc.

Since the temp is typically stable in aquariums, the release rates from osmocoat is also stable.

That's a lifestyle alternative that's DIY, less messy, less hassle and last longer. Still, if you want more out any sediment and have the nutrients last longer, a good water column routine, less light, non CO2 approaches will reduce the labor and religious CO2 dosing etc etc etc, there are other ways that allow folks to get more out the sediment that apply much more generally to all sediments not just ADA As or ADA PS.

Such concepts are more useful to the hobby than a mere brand.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Brian]

Tom Barr osmocoat is osmocote in the sustrate?

mi opinion of this. I never use ps or as but i use eco complete and have algae problems and plant not growing so well, im thinking that it is due to high light but im not shure. My father have a low tech inert gravel ecept of a laterite bottom and very poor light and have a "jungle" of easy plants (dwarf sagittaria, echinodorus, higro, cryptos, moss, bacopa) and 0 ALGAE. He use a undergravel filter, 2 power filter and one big canister filter. It is a high overfiltration, the water is cristal clear. he use the regular fertilizer for normal plants 20-20-20 + micronutrients and he use iron and KSO4. he have 10 angels. the aquarium is 55 gallons. Im going through all indications in the internet and have bad results and he using his "lucky" has great results.

Im think that the as, ps etc.. of high cost sustrate not is the only way to have a great planted tank, there are other ways and cheaper, In the pet shop that i buy have a great tank with a great selection of plants and it only uses inert gravel, only with liquid ferts have all the nutrients to make a great planted tank.