Do you use Power Sand together with Aqua Soil?

[J House]

"Algae issues are not from dosing, they tend to be centered around CO2 and too much light, not enough biomass. PS is not going to offer alternatives there, nor prevent them from doing the religious labor intensive water changes.

You claim it does, what do you base this on?
I do not have more or less algae with or without.
Did you?
ADA AS has a lot of nutrients as well.
Do not believe me?
Then how did the HC grow in my 180 gal tank to the massive rug?
Water and ADA AS. No algae, no water changes, no work/labor, no ADA PS."

Tom, just for the record I actually agree with your first paragraph here, but who are you referring to in the next paragraph? If it's me, I never claimed AS or AS/PS did anything other than grow plants. I asked for more options on AS/PS in terms of dosing and lifestyles. I'm trying to keep the discussion about AS or AS/PS and does it help people who are challenged "lifestyle wise" in terms of dosing. A broader discussion about other products and or elements that would reduce dosing, etc. so a planted tank might be attainable by people who are challenged "lifestyle wise" would be a welcome addition. But lets call it what it is. ADA is as close as we have right now to a household name that people are comfortable with since it is marketed as such. It is this comfort level that will create additional planted tank hobbyists that feel it's attainable via product claims.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by J House

Tom, just for the record I actually agree with your first paragraph here, but who are you referring to in the next paragraph? If it's me, I never claimed AS or AS/PS did anything other than grow plants.

No, it's not you personally, it's towards everyone in general, we all make assumptions and are human. Do not assume that it's a personal thing, you asked "if it's me"......generally bad idea

This is the web and context is not always clear and folks can take things the wrong way. I virtually never get personal(and if so, I am very clear about it), I go after the idea, the mental process. Never the person.

I would have burned out long ago if that was what I did or was about

I asked for more options on AS/PS in terms of dosing and lifestyles. I'm trying to keep the discussion about AS or AS/PS and does it help people who are challenged "lifestyle wise" in terms of dosing.

I think they do.
Well, ADA AS perhaps, folks could use DIY soils etc, but they are not as consistent or as easy to get a hold of nor look as nice in most cases as ADA AS.

You could add more ADA AS.
Or add Osmocoat in place of PS

These will last as long as PS and present less mess and thus a better lifestyle.

A broader discussion about other products and or elements that would reduce dosing, etc. so a planted tank might be attainable by people who are challenged "lifestyle wise" would be a welcome addition. But lets call it what it is. ADA is as close as we have right now to a household name that people are comfortable with since it is marketed as such. It is this comfort level that will create additional planted tank hobbyists that feel it's attainable via product claims.

I have never had an issue with some of the ADA products, just the ones that really do not help much relative to things we easily can DIY or having a better tested understanding and results, we can skip.

Then we have far more options, less issues with higher cost, $$$ issues for folks, which is a huge issue for many folks with respect to ADA in general, it ain't cheap, that is a deterrent for many.

I'd rather spend the $ on the tank and ADA As (or anything else) vs the other things that require more initial labor, more cost, less aesthetics and I get little out of.

ADA still expects dosing daily, water changes etc, what's adding a bit KNO3 to all that? Not much difference in lifestyle near as I can tell. Can you argue that it really is relative the system and brand? I cain't.

The real issue is helping folks to learn and realize they can DIY, or skip some products, they need not use all of it, just like years past, with Dupla, we had the exact same debates, the same argument for and against, the same brand loyalty, the items that worked and many that did not................some folks going whole hog and using all the Dupla product line and all of the "system" and this includes heat cables...........which are also a lifestyle choice.

This approach and logic is not used just on ADA, rather, to all products.
So we can buy the products that are useful and significant, and not for the other fluff, this is far more pragmatic and balanced approach to aquarium plant keeping.

Some folks might also be much better suited for non CO2 tanks, since they require no dosing to speak of, no water changes etc, there are trade offs, but lifestyles, personal habits etc + reasonable goals for the tank must be considered.

We cannot suggest that one method/system will meet all aquarist goals.
We can however, suggest various methods and products to meet the goals and trade offs each aquarist might have.

So discussing what trade offs PS relative to AS is good to this goal.

"What is it that we really get out of the product and which product is really helping and giving us results." "Are there DIY alternatives that are simple and easy to use, cheap etc?"

"Is adding CO2 the best thing for me"

These are very relevant to any dosing question as CO2 drives uptake of nutrients as do increases in light by 5-10-20X even.

If I have 20X less dosing demands, that's pretty easy for my or anyone's lifestyle.

So the general question needs to consider the whole concept of plant growth and take a step back to consider that ...if personal habits are truly the issue.

I agree that personal habits need to be considered before anything. This leads to long term success for planted tank folks. And it may not include CO2, but could include ADA products.......

Regards,
Tom Barr

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Brian

Tom Barr osmocoat is osmocote in the sustrate?

Yes, see old APD post, folks have been using it since the 1980's.

mi opinion of this. I never use ps or as but i use eco complete and have algae problems and plant not growing so well, im thinking that it is due to high light but im not shure. My father have a low tech inert gravel ecept of a laterite bottom and very poor light and have a "jungle" of easy plants (dwarf sagittaria, echinodorus, higro, cryptos, moss, bacopa) and 0 ALGAE.

Well, the sediment is just a fraction of the elements here. You need to have a reference to compare just the isolated sediment itself to to give a fair comparison, otherwise you have confounding factors.

Low tech tanks are pretty easy once set up, but few ADA folks are low tech users. Using ADA for your hi tech will not "cure things". CO2 errors cause most of the issues for folks(algae and dead fish), which is one good reason why the low tech approach works well.

He use a undergravel filter, 2 power filter and one big canister filter. It is a high overfiltration, the water is cristal clear. he use the regular fertilizer for normal plants 20-20-20 + micronutrients and he use iron and KSO4. he have 10 angels. the aquarium is 55 gallons. Im going through all indications in the internet and have bad results and he using his "lucky" has great results.

Im think that the as, ps etc.. of high cost sustrate not is the only way to have a great planted tank, there are other ways and cheaper, In the pet shop that i buy have a great tank with a great selection of plants and it only uses inert gravel, only with liquid ferts have all the nutrients to make a great planted tank.

Ask yourself these questions:

How much plant biomass does he have relative to yours?
The tank is well established and has a lot of plants that are in good shape, not sickly algae covered plants. Adding ferts that are used up asap, but what if you took say 80% of those plants out and kept doing the same things?

What would you predict then?

There are several methods out there to meet various goals.
CO2 vs non CO2 is the biggest choice, how fast do you want the plants to grow and what trade offs/are you willing to do to achieve that?

Sediment based nutrients are a no brainer since you want to go low tech and not dose much at all. The tank would be even easier to care for this case. Then no need for the NPK ferts, you can still top off once every 2 weeks etc if plant biomass is high, the fish load/feeding low, but often it's not needed.

You also may NOT keep some plants that are weak CO2 competitors together with strong CO2 uptake plants etc. There are trade offs when you go low tech, but those choices and trade offs are lifestyle/personal habits.

The debate here is really if the ADA AS alone vs the ADA As +PS helps this and allows folks to do less work and dosing.

I do not think it does ...since you are generally going to add CO2 if you use ADA, dose daily traces/K+, do frequent water changes, adding a bit KNO3 or adding osmocoat to the sediment is no big deal relative to all that.

You do not get anything significant out that.
If you think so, let's hear why you think you do and see if the argument makes any sense.

I have not heard anything to date thus far that does.........

Regards,
Tom Barr

[naman]

Power Sand is intended for microorganisms...
see article at Aqua Journal Online: nature aquarium notes 01, How to use Aqua Soil.

[plantbrain]

Why not use plain pumice then?
Natural systems do not have this.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[naman]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Why not use plain pumice then?

I said that hundreds of times (how to DIY Power Sand).
You know that but somehow mysteriously missed this.

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Natural systems do not have this.

Only if you are UNABLE to see the fact that ground waters always leaking through river beds and/or waters from river bed go into the ground, so there there are always some movement.
There is never "dead lock" at the bottom as in tanks without loose enough substrate and/OR pumice at the bottom.

Plus if you are UNABLE to see that plain sand is 75% of "dead lock" and only 25% of water.
Pumice has 90% of "holes" so there is a much more water in the lower layer of substrate.
More water = more O2 for microorganisms and roots, more space for rotifers etc, more nutrients and O2 exchange with water column and more healthy substrate...

Power Sand is not intended to feed plants directly, while if you have no high CEC substrate or ADA Aqua Soil you can add 20-50% of earthworm castings of pumice volume + some FTE + some peat. Here you go - DIY Power Sand with much more nutrients storage than original product.

Again it is not about dry weight per day of plants biomass.
It is about maintenance, easy starting, stable tank, better cycling of organics in sediments without siphoning it at all, ability to have much better substrate without(!) Aqua Soil with plane 2-5mm gravel mix and ability to have a well balanced tank for a 5+ years without any single siphoning with this cheap combo (pumice+gravel) with 10% of the bottom covered with live plants without any issues...
but ONLY if someone able to see that or ever tested that for 5+ years...

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by naman

Only if you are UNABLE to see the fact that ground waters always leaking through river beds and/or waters from river bed go into the ground, so there there are always some movement.
There is never "dead lock" at the bottom as in tanks without loose enough substrate and/OR pumice at the bottom.

Nor in aquariums either, it's diffused above as much as it leaches into, also, in natural systems, new water seeps from the ground itself into the water.

This is a multiple direction system here.
Pumic at the bottom on an aquarium is not going to do anything nor makes any logical point to your argument.

Plus if you are UNABLE to see that plain sand is 75% of "dead lock" and only 25% of water.
Pumice has 90% of "holes" so there is a much more water in the lower layer of substrate.
More water = more O2 for microorganisms and roots, more space for rotifers etc, more nutrients and O2 exchange with water column and more healthy substrate...

Actually the driving factor for O2 transfer in sediment are plant roots.
They act like pipes for O2 and greatly enhance the bacterial communities.
Plants are aerobic after all and this includes the roots, they live in many places without Powersand or pumic etc.

This is why there's no growth differences between PS+ ADA As and ADA As a lone, which is the topic here.

As I also understand it, at least based on what you have mentioned, you have never used ADA As or ADA PS, I have and many others on this and many other list have.

I guess you are the voice of experience and testing huh?

Power Sand is not intended to feed plants directly, while if you have no high CEC substrate or ADA Aqua Soil you can add 20-50% of earthworm castings of pumice volume + some FTE + some peat. Here you go - DIY Power Sand with much more nutrients storage than original product.

Both add nutrients, you can also modify ADA PS if you wished as well.
So this does not support your argument that pumic, ADA Ps helps in any way.

Which is the point here.

If what you are trying to claim is true, then simply adding pumic vs plain sand would grow plants better, without any nutrients added, and would have higher rates of growth at enriched levels as well. Adding something with more CEC will, but the size, O2 and diffusion does not support your argument.

Again it is not about dry weight per day of plants biomass.

I disagree, that's what we do here, grow plants, garden and scape.
So it is about growth, and preference is about a higher rate of growth.
The only other aspect is aesthetics, and ADA PS is not aesthetic nor enhances plant aesthetics near as anyone can tell.

If it does not help the plants grow better , do not add it.

[ quote]
It is about maintenance, easy starting, stable tank, better cycling of organics in sediments without siphoning it at all, ability to have much better substrate without(!) Aqua Soil with plane 2-5mm gravel mix and ability to have a well balanced tank for a 5+ years without any single siphoning with this cheap combo (pumice+gravel) with 10% of the bottom covered with live plants without any issues...but ONLY if someone able to see that or ever tested that for 5+ years...[/quote]

I've got 3 years in using it and you obviously have no experience
It use to be 1-2years, now you decided to up it to 5 years now?
Who here keeps scapes for 5 years and how would you control for such an long term experiment Naman?

Get real.

You could not say there's a significant difference between two treatments due solely to the AS+PS vs ADA AS alone even at 1-2 years time' frame, there are too many other variables that folks do and mistakes they make.

This is the same marketed Dupla baloney that George Booth in the 1990's argue with me about. He had the wisdom to realize that it was not a significant difference and the great number of variable involved that might skew his conclusion.

He suggested that it was no something strong or direct either, it did not help plants growth better, rather, was a long term thing that has "subtle long effects". I asked what the effects where, there was no real defined effect that could be quantified.

So the effects are "not significant".
He admitted that, if you extend the time frame out long enough, you can say anything has a long term subtle effect.

This is how marketing sucks you into to their sales.
Make things so darn vague and convoluted, folks have to buy it on faith, after awhile, some folks test the actual product, then realize it's not a significant aspect to the "ADA system", rather, the ADA As is the significant factor.

Your same argument is the same thing that Cable folks argued 2 decades before you Naman. As far as adding nutrients vs not adding nutrients, well that's pretty obvious, more nutrients in a sediment vs none will grow plants better.

I'm not arguing that, rather than other stuff(O2, diffusion, long term stabilizing effects) you are trying to claim and without any experience using these products, nor the the cable debate from decades past near as I can tell.

ADA used many of the same marketed reasoning that Dupla used, it was already partially accepted by some thus represented a market that was already established.

That, not some secret ADA info, is really what is being done.
But you can believe all you want. Belief will never make you right in and of itself however nor will insistence.

You need to test, show results, actually use the products, do treatments and think about fair ways to look at and test them. Discuss them fairly with others and share the information. Background research and reading up on the web is only a little bit of the process and does not mean you have any expertise at all.

Pose a question and then try and answer it, like the other folks have done.
Then see what results we get. Since you have not use it, what the heck can you really offer and say about it?

Regards,
Tom Barr

[StanChung]

That's not an answer. Looks like a thesis/debate/watchamathingycallit. LOL.

I'm only in my 2nd month testing PS, results so far are good. Growth is very fast for eleocharis sp.[slower than E. acicularis or E. parvula] Don't have comparison testing. Probably because I'm using lots of light. 120W over a 2ft tank.

IMO PS is not a must get. It's a nice to have[placebo effect? haha]. I will never know because I don't have the tools to test. It's pretty easy to 'unmix'. With your next big rescape, use a net with the right sized net hole and sift. Drain muddy water, use new AS to cover-finito.

The netting is an idea but I'm not bothered because sifting it works fine. If I don't want to sift it, I just use a hose to suck it all out into a pail and use it for my garden project where the potential to mess up the living room is less.

What I can see in my AS only setups after two years are rust colour sediments forming on the sides, each rescape is dustier and takes longer to clear. Characteristics of soil pellets I suppose. Growth slides a bit after 6 months. Some new AS poured in and growth does improve. Perhaps N dosing was lacking.

So PS or not to PS? Your choice.

[naman]

Here is the TRUTH about what I said about my experience with pumice without Aqua Soil. See also further discussion and make conclusions.
No comments.

[StanChung]

Hi Naman,

Tom said plant roots provide O2-well in new setups how is this possible?
The new plant roots rots as they get bruised when 1st planted unless there's some technique I don't know of.

ADA always has lots of bacteria stuff[bacter 100] etc to get the startup going real quick. I had the Penac P and W + tourmaline BC[bamboo charcoal], prior to adding PS special.

They recommend night aeration in new setups for O2.[something I did not do but my tank did not turn out too badly.]

I did it as per manual in my 2ft setup and the speed is amazing. If fact I had to cut down lighting to slow things down since I've been away. Green water and spot algae mostly.

See my Iwawoody journal. -http://www.my-mac.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6177

[StanChung]

Basically

Day1


Day 2


Day 11


Day 31


Only one month and I still keep hearing people they can't grow hairgrass.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by StanChung

Hi Naman,

Tom said plant roots provide O2-well in new setups how is this possible?
The new plant roots rots as they get bruised when 1st planted unless there's some technique I don't know of.

Have you pulled up plant stems after 1 week? Lots and lots of roots.
After 2 weeks? Even more roots. All aquatic species have excellent roots for O2 transport.They have to. Flooded soils have no O2.
This is where these plants come from.

Anyone that trims their plants and uproots can see this. It does not take months, I uproot R wallichii every 1-2 weeks and it's loaded with new roots.
No PS at all. Many other folks report the same thing. You pick a species you believe that will do as well with/without PS and I'll falsify it if you'd like
Tonia(any species or type)?
L pantanal?
Rotala's?
Erio's?
P stellata?
HC?

You pick a species and I'll be glad to show the before and after pics of the roots.

Root- aerobic bacteria relationship are well known and long understood in wetland species. This is not something "new", nor applies to these systems.

Folks believe any crock marketing explanation.

But more than that, basic observations can easily show that this notion is false. Pull roots up and look.

ADA always has lots of bacteria stuff[bacter 100] etc to get the startup going real quick. I had the Penac P and W + tourmaline BC[bamboo charcoal], prior to adding PS special.

Well, if you wanted to know just about the ADA AS and the AS+PS then the rest of the stuff might/should be removed to test it.

I use mulm from an established tank
Adds precisely what is missing in the live active state.
Better than any concoction ands it's free.

They recommend night aeration in new setups for O2.[something I did not do but my tank did not turn out too badly.]

Well, this helps the NH4 removal and any organic matter to be oxidized.
Not bad idea.

I did it as per manual in my 2ft setup and the speed is amazing. If fact I had to cut down lighting to slow things down since I've been away. Green water and spot algae mostly.

See my Iwawoody journal. -http://www.my-mac.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6177

Well, that suggest something I speculated many years ago with higher light and NH4 and in a new tank. Green water blooms.

If you use mulm and do more water changes, no GW occurs.

With and without PS.

Bacteria helps convert the NH4 to NO3 before the algae bloom.
So you will not likely see this again. GS, well, more PO4 and that goes away.

Rather than believing me or the diatribes of Naman or myself, just test it your self and see. Does your root growth look good after a week or two? Pull a few up and see how much they have grown in 1,2, 4 week's time.

That should give you a strong indication of what is going on there.
Near as I or anyone can tell, Naman, has never used either product.
I have on quite of number of tanks now. Point is, convince yourself, not me or anyone else. Then you have something real to base your conclusion on.

You can also try this: place PS and AS and then AS alone in a pot and see root growth. Or in the tank itself, plant some stems in an area that has the PS and in another where there is none and see.

Or you can do entire tank set ups, typically these have a fair amount of variation.

Visual inspection should be enough for you to decide, but dry weights are best. You did not place any Ps in the front part of the set up? Only in the rear? the roots should be easy to see and compare if so.

Pot test are good but realize PS also has a lot of nutrient that the ADA AS does not have initially, so you will want to account for that. Using the same tank helps address such issues.

Good choice on the hair grass, easy plant to maintain and grow over the long term, good switch to the other hairgrass, E vivipera over the Rotala.
You can mow hair grass just like a lawn. The tall stuff is easy also to trim.
Nice tank for the long term

Still, you did not need some of these items to get the same result.
Most do not care as long as they have success.

Over time, if you redo the hair grass in the front, try sloping the AS back and only have maybe 1cm at most pressing against the front panel.This will add more depth and give the front panel more plants and less AS to view.



Regards,
Tom Barr

[StanChung]

Hi Tom,

The plants we buy here typically are emersed plants and don't have any usable roots. They are grown emersed to avoid algae issues and are easier/more economical to cultivate in most cases FYI as shown in the pic.

Your idea of using mulm is good but I don't see how you can get mulm without having another established tank to start with. I don't see how I can buy mulm at LFS either.
Most guys I know are running only one tank in their house buy the way as permitted by the home minister.

Lastly, thank you for trying to explain in detail and I have to say I really don't know the difference except that there's more than one way to Rome. :
The best way? Not by arguing over small matters IMO and concentrate on the scaping.

[plantbrain]

Hi Stan,

So essentially your argument is that you should not worry and just scape?
That is what I read above. Correct me if that was wrong.

The topic/poll is about whether or not you/we use the PS and AS together, not whether either of the methods work, obviously they do which proves my point in the very first place

The question becomes, "does adding PS have any real effect on growth, whether it's stems or roots". If you only have one tank, you cannot say anything statistically. You can break the tank down and redo it and call that a replication and try a treatment. Are you willing to do that? Not likely.

That's why I used several small tanks and applied what I learned there to large tanks. So did others .....and no one has seen any differences with and without near as any one can tell nor I can. I have quite a few folks in my area with ADA full set ups. So I can compare things.

I'm happy you like the results, that's groovy, tank looks nice etc, but you cannot say anything about the question of the topic. All you can say is that ADA AS+PS works for you and nothing more based on your results.

I, however, can.
Other folks have been doing it without PS with the same results.
So if we both get the same types of results...............are there any significant differences? You said there are many paths to Rome, so I guess you are saying that both work, so why bother adding PS then? What is it that you gain from adding it? How can you say without testing both cases?

This is not about scaping, this about common sense and whether or not you have tried both treatments.

Aquarists should not have a pre drawn conclusion, then go about trying to support the argument with semantics or tangents. By trying it and testing something, it need not be at a lab etc, a simple test ........Then..... you can draw the conclusion based on the results. You and most folks here seem to only have 1/2 the results. So how can you conclude about ADA As alone? Many assume ADA is 100% correct in all their marketing claims and all their products are required for success.

This is quite counter to what myself and other folks have found.
This was examplified yet again when I tested and measured the ADA lights at Aqua Forest. The light was quite low compared to similar light fixtures of the same wattage and bulb types(2-3x less) and this was with 6 aquariums and at different locations within each tank using PAR rather than Watt/gal or lumens or other poor plant growth light measures.

The mulm is given from a LFS, I doubt they'd get much $ for it
Many aquarists have friends in the hobby if they only have one tank, the roots of plants are also loaded with bacteria, most LFS will give you some mulm from a filter etc, lots cheaper than PS. Emergent plant roots are still in a saturated condition and need little adaptation, they will regrow new roots quickly after replanting, just like trimming plants on a weekly basis.
No different. Adding O2 requires diffusion and plants have these already established in their new roots, it's called "aerenchyma". This is why the entire notion of O2 and circulation to the root zone to help the plants grow is baloney. Tropica did not find this to be the case, nor did Ole or Troels. I've spent a lot of time growing aquatic species on quite a few different sediments in huge numbers at the lab here. This stuff is pure clay mud, much like ADA. I've added pots of PS and ADA AS to play with, never saw any differences with a dozen or so species.

All aquatic plants have this anatomy, it is a defining characteristic of aquatic wetland species roots. New or old roots, does not matter, they all have it and that is how they get O2 to the roots in a wide range of sediments in natural and artificial systems. The results from aquarists as well as research and what is known about aquatic plant roots also support this conclusion.
New root tips have very high respiration rates and the flow of O2 is important, but that's not being supplied exogenously, it's endogenous within the plant itself as it grows.
That's the part the PS and heat cable folks seem to miss.

If you take this a step farther in time, as plant roots fill in in either system(w or w/o PS), the root mass really starts to define the system, not PS or cables due to the massive network of roots and O2 addition.
Far more than anything cables or PS will achieve by themselves. If you remove these plant roots and replant, using PS, you should see better response and little negative algae responses, poor water quality etc.
However, that is not the case.

You have the same results in both cases.
So it seems that the roots, not the PS, are the real factor. Even in established mature systems.
This also supports what I've stated.


Regards,
Tom Barr