Who uses cable heaters? Why, or why not?

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by dougz

How do I do this without damaging the plant?

What is X?

You uproot and replant all the time in most/many tanks.
Look at the roots when you pull them up. Are they healthy?
You can also look at them through the glass bottom or the sides of the tank.

2x 3x = 2 times 3 times.....

[quote]
But hold up..

The health of the substrate (bubbling, dead zones) and by extension the health, not growth, of the plants would be on trial..
[quote]

So what is "health"?
In botanical experimental research for horticulture, you need some measure to quantify. If a plant prefers one treatment vs another or a control, then it will produce more biomass and you can measure this. But how does not one say something is healthier than another plant?

Clearly if the cables help the health, then the root biomass will be higher, as any negative impact on the health will manifest as a function of the rates of growth. Thus a less "healthy" root will have less biomass.
You cannot say something is less healthy and then have more growth.
That makes no sense at all.

If something is less healthy then it will have some negative impact on growth over time, especially over longer time frames.

I think this is a play on semantics and confusion when they have no argument for support.

According to the pro-cable people (the minority in the extreme, it would appear) it takes a year minmum, with no cables running for the UNdesired results to manifest itself (anaerobic conditions in the substrate, dead roots).

Where's everyone's dead roots and anaerobic conditions then?
How are these measured?
Ever used a redox meter or a O2 meter in wetland sediments?
I have more than I care to count. Ever measured the O2/redox around the rhizosphere of a plant root in a tank or in the field?

Oddly, the cable folks never talk about these parameters, they also do not address the biological interaction and activity of the plant roots themselves.

How much O2 is produced by healthy active growing roots?
How is the rate of O2 eflux from the roots effected by a reduction in CO2? Reduced limiting NO3?
Less light?

In every case: less O2.

It's not this one dimension about flow that causes issues, nor will cables save folks from any of the above.

Like a sand filter, cables speed the rate of flow up. The faster the rate of flow, the faster the sediment will clog, adding more flow will not unclog any filter

And that's what they try to claim which is baloney.
1 year is a long time and few folks will bother to test this.
So if you make claims out far enough, then few will challenge them.

But..........many of us have used cables for lot more than 1 year.
So what benefits are we suppose to see?

None I could ever tell or measure.
After 1 year and no uprooting of the plants, well..the roots are grown in and adding lots of O2 anyway, so there's no point if claiming that's due to the cables. This what happens when an engineer tries to play botantist.
the microbial loop and the plant roots are well formed.

This same statement could be made for most any planted tank, non CO2, CO2, high or low light etc, after 1 years, things have become quite stable.

It's not really growth rate or overall health in the short term, it's the lifespan of the substrate in the extreme long-term that's the issue, now that I consider this fully.

It's always about the rates.
If we go to the extreme long life span of a sediment, what influences this?
Water column dosing, good CO2, loading rates of organic matter in/out, pruning, uprooting, export,

You are welcomed to read any text on wetland hydric sediments and it's always about the rates of loading of organic carbon in/out of the sediment.

That is the main theme in wetland soils and it influences plant growth.

Why don't more folks have issues?
Because there are far more significant variables in planted tanks, this ain't one of them and no one has shown this once to date. I've had cables for long time frames, shut them off, they did not change anything in doing so.

[quote]
I could only really test the effects if I had two tanks over more than a year.. They wouldn't necessarily have to be the same in terms of much, besides substrate composition, bioload, and relative plant stocking.. As all we'd be testing is wether the substrate becomes anaerobic or not.
[quote]

It is far better to use blocks or repeated measures on the same tank.
This way the tank is the same except for time. Many have already done this for many years, it's called hot warm summers and cool winters.

Folks shut them off 4-6 months and turn them on in the winter.
In comparing perhaps 20 or so aquarist in the 1990's, we never found any differences.

That's a lot of tanks and a lot of test.
Maybe they need to be on longer?
More than 1 year etc?

Heck, you can extend the time frame out to decades and claim this to be the real issue if you wanted to.............but still lack any evidence that do what is claimed and work and help plants grow better.
I broke down some cables and just shut them off after being on for several years at client. We never saw any differences.

Later, after 8 months, I removed them and replaced with plain flourite, which did much better than the old sand cable set up. We could see a difference in the short and long term there, much like ADA AS vs sand or flourite.

I know what you're going to say, you've had tanks set up for years with no issues..
I think that's what we should be asking..

So who's going to test something over 1-2 years and keep all the other parameters in non limiting independent conditions/levels during this long time frame and have enough reps so say something realistic about it?

That's a tall order.

Who has had their tanks set up for more than 1-2 years, and if they've had any such issues with their substrate..

I think a better question is what influence do cables have on your sediment's Redox values over time.
What is an optimal value for roots?
What influence do roots themselves have on redox value?
How does poor conditions of other parameters(CO2, light, NO3 etc) influence the redox and the ability of roots AND BACTERIA to cycle mulm/organic matter?

What you ask will not answer your question which is really if cables help aquarium plants, how and why. It's not experiemental, it's just observational. Many things can gone wrong over 1-2 years and kill roots that has nothing to do with the sediment. However, the research, the large % of observations from many folks that have used cables and those that do not and see little need, as well as any experiment that folks have done over the years, as well as any natural system observation have all shown pretty clearly that the claims are false.

There's just no evidence for support from a wide range of fields.

If you are passionate about this, then look up research, ask Claus or Brad, set up a good test and measure things like Redox, O2 levels in the sediments over time, set up blocks and repeated measures, try with many species of plants. Prove it to yourself. If you are not willing to do that, then you really cannot have it both ways.

Look at the evidence 1st!
Set up a test.
Then see what you might conclude.

Not like this method:



Regards,
Tom Barr

[Jur4ik]

same discussion like here (AS + PS vs AS only).
i think it is a religious thing - people made good expirience using cable heater will swear on them.

people tried both and felt any difference wont use them any more.

are those cable heaters a real alternative to normal water heaters? is it possible to heat a big tank (60g) only with cable heaters?

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Jur4ik

same discussion like here (AS + PS vs AS only).
i think it is a religious thing - people made good expirience using cable heater will swear on them.

people tried both and felt any difference wont use them any more.

This is a pretty good summary.

I just got back from natural habitats in Florida, never saw any Powersand or Heating cables.



Where's the nature in that?

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Jur4ik]

boah this looks amazing

[Robert Hudson]

are those cable heaters a real alternative to normal water heaters? is it possible to heat a big tank (60g) only with cable heaters?

No, and no, and it was never meant to be. Its purpose is not to heat the water and hold a temp, its purpose is to create a small current of warm water at the roots. It should never be used as a water column heater.

I just got back from natural habitats in Florida, never saw any Powersand or Heating cables

Really? Gee, I guess you never saw any laterite, flourite, Eco complete, or any other type of substrate or substrate fertilizer either, right?

Who has had their tanks set up for more than 1-2 years, and if they've had any such issues with their substrate..

Well thats a problem because the modern aquascaper re arranges everything every six months. George Booth was the big american proponant of substrate heaters, following the dupla method. Today I don't think anyone under the age of 40 knows who George Booth is any more, and Dupla is no longer relevant either.

Roy Deki's 'Pursuit of Longetivity' will be featured in there soon... Also Tom Barr's behemoth.

I guess thats tit for tat, because Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine just did a big feature on a guy from the UK that has an 11 foot long planted aquarium! That tank was absolutely incredible looking. Very heavily densly planted and with a soil substrate. I was wondeing if anyone knew who this guy was and if he was part of the internet community or not. It amazes me when some one like this comes to light who is not a plant guru or up on the latest STUFF, but some how still seems to get it all right.

[Jur4ik]

where is this 11 foot long tank? wanna see it

[Rastaman]

I don´t use cable heaters, because the room temperature where my tanks are placed never drop under 20´C. If my room temp. happend to be low, E.I. during winter in non heated room, there will be a difference in temperature between the water column with a heater and the substrate. If the temperature of the substrate is significantly low, the root growth of aquatic plants slows down as well.

[dougz]

I had that problem in the summer.. Neither of my heaters were on, of course, and it was all I could do to keep the tank temp in the low 80's!

Going to get an AC unit for next summer...

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by Robert Hudson

Really? Gee, I guess you never saw any laterite, flourite, Eco complete, or any other type of substrate or substrate fertilizer either, right?

You can see plenty of rich clays, sandy loams, some rich, some very poor in nutrients(eg rock and large rubble). I said I saw no evidence of heat from below. Sediments and water column are the same temp.
What the heck does your comment have to do the topic I raised?
Zero.

Tropica, Oriental, FAN etc that grow aquatic plants at large horticultural scales do not use this. Nor did Gasser.........

To date, there has never been one study using an aquatic plant showing a growth difference between a control and use of heating cables. Not one.
If you think so, let's see the study. I've been asking this question for 15 years now. No one has provide a thing to date.

Or suggest one that we might do to see? This topic is about cables, not whether nutrients are useful or other types of sediments for aquariums are/are not useful.

You have been in the hobby long enough to know the difference.
I can speculate why you hopped in and made such off topic commentary, but only you know why.

Well thats a problem because the modern aquascaper re arranges everything every six months. George Booth was the big american proponant of substrate heaters, following the dupla method. Today I don't think anyone under the age of 40 knows who George Booth is any more, and Dupla is no longer relevant either.

Does not mean the issues and the claims they made are any different today, folks realize they where right about some things(CO2 gas tanks, etc), but wrong about the usefulness of cables.

It's still an issue of faith, not whether they work, anyone can do some simple test to prove they have little if any effect. I detailed those simple methods out and even George fessed that they have no significant effect on plants. George and I are good friends, but we are also honest with each other and it's not about our ego's, agenda etc. It's fun and a pursuit of knowledge. Much like good sportsmanship.

Do you possess such an attitude?

I guess thats tit for tat, because Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine just did a big feature on a guy from the UK that has an 11 foot long planted aquarium

You mean Jeff W. Yes, that guy is known by the folks there in the UK, George Farmer and the the national club there. He thinks PO4 causes algae

Folks still grew plants back then too, does not mean they are better or that their rational and reasons why are correct. He seems able to cite his years in the hobby, bloat his ego and not do basic simple test to see if there are any differences or not.

A simple test to see if you can induce algae using nutrients is a rather simple test to see if the theory you claim is right or not , correct?

Why just assume such theory as correct?
Many folks did in the past.
I challenge everything and need to prove it to myself, and to better understand it and the issues. Needless to say, it does not make me friends with those Know Nothings that take things personally, I could really care less about such petty behavior.

I could care less if you have been in 6 months or 60 years, have gone to school or not, does not mean you are right. Everything he's said to date was what Dupla initially had claimed.

That tank was absolutely incredible looking. Very heavily densly planted nd with a soil substrate. I was wondeing if anyone knew who this guy was and if he was part of the internet community or not. It amazes me when some one like this comes to light who is not a plant guru or up on the latest STUFF, but some how still seems to get it all right.

Yes, he's the guy that threaten to sue forums and business in the UK for slander because folks criticized his claims, reminds me of Bob Novak, remember him Robert? He also has an ego to match Novak's
Oh, he certainly lays claim to being "The Expert". Often likes to tell us that he has 55 years in the hobby, but does not answer the question. Takes things personally, like Novak.

Still wondering or trying to suggest someone knows more than you do about cables and being hopeful that they do? If cables have no effect, then using them are hardly evidence that they work and are the reason why a tank does better or not. What is needed is a definitive method to see if the plants grow faster with cables vs not.

All aquatic plants will grow slower with lower temps, and faster with warmer temps. Whether or not it is in the sediment does not matter. You need to have a test that shows that, not the influence of temp on plant growth for the entire plant, just the root zone alone.

We can go to virtually any natural environment and find that the water column and the sediments are the same temps. If cables promote Root growth, then there should be a significant different in the dry weight of Roots.

This is a simple test to do. Pick a single plant, say something that produces a lot of roots, sword plant and a stem plant like Rotala. Grow 5 tank's with cables and 4-5 tanks without heat cables. Each pair of treatment/no treatment have the same water column so that no differences there would influence things, only the sediment cables.

After 2 or 8 or 20 weeks, harvest a sub sample from each tank and compare the dry weight of the root biomass, total biomass and shoot biomass.

I'll eat my words if someone can show a difference using this method, gladly. I've heard all the faith based stuff, the claims, the beliefs etc. It does nothing to answer a darn thing to help the hobby.

I've suggested some simple methods to see for hobbyists and for researchers. Nothing to date has shown support for cables in any critical manner, in most all cases, the opposite from those that have used cables and had them cycle off during the summer. No one I know has seen any difference in root growth, plant health, etc.

"Subtle Long Term Stability" is buzz phase for non significant effect, by it's very definition. I need as a hobbyists to see some difference, not just my personal faith, for my trouble, $ and time for such products.

Ask Claus from Tropica if he knows of any evidence.
Or Troels, or Ole, etc

Using the same logic you used, the ADA contest would disprove you geedy support for heat cable use. See anyone that used them? Critical thinking?


Regards,
Tom Barr

[ultimbow]

I use heating cable. I have not seen the diffrence on plant but i use is because i used to have carpet of blue algea on my substrate aquarium. Piss me off. I put The heating cable in to creat the water circulation it is supose to and that clear my problem never had algea growing on my substrate again. In new system in my personal opinion it help the biological wheel to get establish faster in the substrate du to that water circulation.

So i Don't think it is somthing you need. For me on some point made my life easyer.

Good day every body.