How come Amano doesn't use a Spray bar?

[John N.]

I mostly use a spray bar in my aquariums. I think for the reason most people use it, distribution of nutrients, even water flow, and simply because it comes with our filter (mostly like Eheim or Rena Filstar).

To my knowledge, the ADA standard is not to use a spray bar. Instead a straight "jet" or gushing water flow from the output is recommended, and their outflow products reflect that. With Amano being so successful in growing aquatic plants he must be onto something right, but what? Why doesn't he use a spray bar?

-John N.

[BPASCreighton]

Just a guess, but the spray takes the same flow rate and splits it up into many smaller less powerful streams. With a single jet you get adequate movement throughout the tank rather than just along where the spraybar is. I find that my aquariums had a lot of dead spots when I was using the spraybars. That's just a guess, but he probably does it because he doesn't like the way a spray bar looks or something crazy like that . Who knows?

[Anti-Pjerrot]

Its not about spraybars or lilypipes (to a point). Its about flow and circulation. I have studied the flow and circulation of the ADA setups - and they are set up quite good.

The positioning of the output and intake gives a circular flow. The lilypipe removes surfacescum /(proteins = nutients) and the flow makes sure everyting passes the filter, with the intake in the bottom.

Now - I noticed the CO2 diffuser is usually placed in the opposite side - hence dragging the CO2 bubbles downwards over the diffuser and towards the intake.

Most people place their diffuser under the spraybar - but this flow draws the bobbles up and more CO2 is lost.

But back to the spraybar/No spraybar discussion: Looks. Crystal clear Lilypipe or plastic green spraybar.

[Hoppy]

I haven't been happy with using a spraybar, because the water circulation doesn't seem to be very good using one. I switched to a single outlet, a fitting the produces a 2" x 1/8" jet, and the flow is much better. I think the spraybar is an idea that looks very good on paper, but in reality it isn't that good. I'm guessing that Amano doesn't use them for that reason. The glass lily pipes are both a good design for water circulation, and a great looking, thus easily marketable accessory. But, glass lily pipes are obviously going to require a lot of cleaning to remain that good looking in the tank, plus being very vulnerable to breakage.

[goalcreas]

As far as looking good on paper, I assume you are reffering to Planted tanks only, because it does have it's place in an aquarium especially for fish that don't like heavy flow and you don't want them to always have to fight the current.
But it doesn't work very well in some planted tanks, however it does in others.

I did not like it in my 75 gallon alone, but when I added a 2nd filter and used the spray bar on one and the jet on the other, it was better.

I have seen smaller tanks where the spray bar is VERY effective like In some of Roy's tanks.

I hate the dirty lily pipes and never can find the time to do EVERYTHING else and keep those clean, so they are pretty much out for me.
I would like to try the SS ones, but they are not marketed much and don't have the diversity in size options.

[riverrat]

Interesting topic,

I have never used a lilly pipe but have used a experimented a lot. Right now I am using just the sheppards hook that came with my 2126. I am considering going back to the spraybar because it seems that I am getting a little bba in the front bottom of my tank. I think this is do to low flow low co2 in that area. Plants are overgrown right now.

I am not sure about lilly pipes but when I use the sheppards hook only(my cheap version of a lilly) my flow is very gentle. Set up like an ADA tank with sheppards hook on same side as filter intake. This does give me a circular pattern but a very slow one.

If i use the spraybar in the same arrangement I can cut my bar down in size a bit still getting a circular pattern with much more movement.

This is why I am always confused when people say a spray bar does not create as much flow as a pipe. It will create more flow than a pipe for me if you cut it down a little. Less holes for the water to exit from means a faster exit. The volume will remain the same no matter what configuration I assume but the velocity that the water exits is not. Am I wrong here? My plants tell me there is more flow by bending over more?

If you use a garden hose with a nozzle for example. If I set the water at a set flow and take nozzle off it isn't as fast and would not create as much flow. If I put the nozzle on and squeeze it the flow becomes much faster.

Pffft
I better stop thinking about this before my brain blows a gasket.


River

[goalcreas]

Ahhh, a modified spray bar. I have not tried that, too dumb to think of on my own I guess.
I think I might just chop off a few holes of the one in my 75 when I get home tonight.

[John N.]

Originally Posted by riverrat

This is why I am always confused when people say a spray bar does not create as much flow as a pipe. It will create more flow than a pipe for me if you cut it down a little. Less holes for the water to exit from means a faster exit. The volume will remain the same no matter what configuration I assume but the velocity that the water exits is not. Am I wrong here? My plants tell me there is more flow by bending over more?

River your analysis of the basic fluid dynamics is correct for the modified spraybar with less holes/length. Same volume, more pressure which leads to a faster water velocity. However, have you noticed any filter strain and wear? There's going to a lot of back pressure, and therefore will make your filter work harder to push the same volume out of the output. Like your hose analogy, when you stick your thumb in front of the hose, you can hear the pressure strain as the water tries to rush through.

-John N.

[John N.]

Originally Posted by Anti-Pjerrot

The positioning of the output and intake gives a circular flow. The lilypipe removes surfacescum /(proteins = nutients) and the flow makes sure everyting passes the filter, with the intake in the bottom.

I think most planted aquarium hobbyists use a larger filter then what's rated for the tank. If that's the case, shouldn't the spray bar create the same circular movement as a one spout outflow?

-John N.

[Roy Deki]

I bet if he made a glass spray bar in his ADA line he would use it. LOL

[goalcreas]

I think it would be a big seller at least

[riverrat]

Originally Posted by John N.

However, have you noticed any filter strain and wear? There's going to a lot of back pressure, and therefore will make your filter work harder to push the same volume out of the output.
-John N.

No I never noticed any problems. I would not think this would be a problem unless you get silly and cut the bar down to very few holes. To simulate the difference in flow minus two or three holes just reach in the tank and cover a few with your fingers and notice the increase in the flow. After you have and idea of how many to eliminate get out the trusty hacksaw.

If you think you have created to much restriction simply get a drill bit a little bigger than the original holes and drill them a little larger. In fact you can do this just to make your spraybar smaller without much increase in water flow.

Spraybars are cheap so in the past I bought a few to play around with flow in my tank.

[Guillermo]

I made a spraybar with black plastic tube for my Eheim Classic 2250 canister filter, the tube is 43" long, I drilled 10 holes of the same diameter of the original Eheim's spraybar. The DIY spraybar goes almost all along my 82 low-tech planted tank and my perception is that it's working great, I see no restrictions at all.

My 2 cents.

[Orlando]

Why dont they make a spraybar out of glass?

[goalcreas]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Why dont they make a spraybar out of glass?

????? Don't know, I bet if I or you or anybody else came out with one they would be a hot commodity.

[dirrtybirdy]

Originally Posted by Roy Deki

I bet if he made a glass spray bar in his ADA line he would use it. LOL

x2 lol! thats the first thing i though of when i read the OP. i think hes using a unique factor. I have a spray bar and it works extemely well in my biotope. there are no dead spots in the tank at all. theres so much current i had to slow down the water output

but in reality im still a n00b when it comes to aquascaping seriously.

[zeneo]

Like Kristoffer said, I also think that the straight jet works much better with ceramic Co2 difusers then the spray bar.

Also for the looks for sure.

[waterfaller1]

So I should have the output and intake for my eheim 2234 on the same side of the tank? How do I create the circular flow you speak of? I have the output heading down towards the other end where the intake is. Is this bad?

[zeneo]

The intake should be in the same side as the output

[waterfaller1]

I like those glass pieces instead of my green eheim pipes. So there is an intake next to the output on the left, and the CO2 diffuser is on the right? I can buy 5/8" clear airline tubing, and use that instead of the green eheim tubing?
Forgive me for so many questions. This is my first canister, and I do not have a CO2 set up yet. The tank is still cycling though, so I have plenty of time to get things right.