How to Mineralize Soil Substrates?

[Shurik]

What a wonderful thread! So much information and all the debates are very interesting to read, I would say It’s life saving.

I was just about to ask the same question – can I substitute potting clay I can’t get anywhere with some laterite, but I was afraid that Aaron suddenly has become just like my grand ancestor mentioned here earlier and will say something like: “No! Clay only, you got to get up at 5 AM, get to the river and dig it out yourself, and this is the end of it!”

But someone else resolved my uncertainties. But I still have tons of questions and will dare to ask them, no matter how stupid I look!

* Does someone has any recommendations on the dosage of laterite used instead of clay?

* The potash. They don’t have it in Home Depot and I don’t have a car, and this makes everything really difficult and frustrating. How necessary is that? I guess it is. Can someone sell me like a table spoon of it? (will pay any money for it!)

* Also I will have to use crushed shells instead of dolomite, and I hope this is OK. Is it?

I never thought of aquarium hobby as being so intense!
Sorry to pop in with my dummy questions, but unfortunately this is just who I am when it comes to aquariums. I feel slightly out of place among such a knowledgeable people, but how do I ever know anything if I don’t ask about anything?

Once again, many thanks to Aaron for the article and taking your time to share your experience with the rest of us.

P.S. Hello to Evergreen , I can see he is from my home town, I was born and raised in Moscow.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by AaronT

The organics in a mineralized soil are minimal. They are still present, hence the soil can be used in both high-tech and low-tech setups.

Thus all 3 methods do work and for pretty much the same reasons, but one takes a few minutes, the other a few weeks, fine if you have the time.
Time trade off, but the end result and the process by which it happens, oxidation....whether by heat(physical/mechanical) or by bacteria(Bio) is still the same, you will have some carbon oxidation as.

As far OM and it's % and influences on aquatic plants, Barko, Smart et al; have done a lot of research in the USA on this specific topic:

http://en.scientificcommons.org/18882310

A far as K_+, do not bother adding it to sediment.
I've not seen any research suggesting it's can be bound nor mobilized well.

However, not all plants will respond the same to different levels of OM.
http://en.scientificcommons.org/18710802

http://en.scientificcommons.org/18405537

Ecological Effects of Wastewater ... - Google Book Search

Generally, 10-20% OM is ideal.
I made mention of this via mixing OM/soil etc with sand rather than a dense super rich bottom layer.

So take some soil, then mix with 3:1 sand/soil, to make a 2"-3' layer, then cap with a normal sand layer on top.

You still have the same total OM available for plants etc, but it's just much more dilute and much less messy when you uproot, and you can add more with less negative impact on plant roots.

Poke around on the web, there's plenty of stuff available so you can learn more and then try applying it.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Evergreen]

Originally Posted by Shurik

P.S. Hello to Evergreen , I can see he is from my home town, I was born and raised in Moscow.

Hi Shurik

I would prefer clay. Laterite has no ability to flocculate the soil.

[Shurik]

Thank you, Tom Barr! I guess it takes care of my K_+ anxiety.
Basically what you are describing is what I already have done to my other two tanks, and it does very well, that’s right. Only I had no understanding of it.

Sounds like I just invented a bicycle for myself.

Hello, Evergreen, great to see you!
You just put me back to my clay search on the bottom of the river at 4 AM.
Why is laterite looses its ability to flocculate, is it because of its granulated consistency? Then if I grind it to micro dispersed particles, I guess it is still not going to take care of it. (It will definitely take care of my coffee grinder). Unless of coarse my soil has enough of clay to begin with.

[Evergreen]

Originally Posted by Shurik

Why is laterite looses its ability to flocculate, is it because of its granulated consistency? Then if I grind it to micro dispersed particles, I guess it is still not going to take care of it..

Laterite has microporous structure. If you grind it will come to the surface when plant uprooting. That's my guess. Maybe I'm wrong. I tried laterite. But I prefer clay. It bonds the soil well.

[hooha]

potting clay can be obtained from any crafts store if you have one local you can take public transportation to.

I used crushed coral in my setups without any difficulty (I have 50# of it sitting around).

[AaronT]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Thus all 3 methods do work and for pretty much the same reasons, but one takes a few minutes, the other a few weeks, fine if you have the time.

I have to disagree Tom, they're not the same. A mineralized soil is much more rich in bio-available nutrients than a boiled or baked soil. It is worth the extra time and effort.

Boiling and baking the soil doesn't break down the organics in the soil into anything usable. It only serves to remove the free ammonia.

[oregonaqua]

just to chime in.

my wife is mad enough with me having the dirt on the deck outside. if she came home and i had dirt baking in the oven she would shove me in with it. that makes this method well worth the time and effort.


one question i have. if i did bake it then added the sand when i set the tank up wouldn't it be 0 bacteria? except maybe whats in my filter? i would have to wait to cycle the tanks?

as a pose to the longer set up with the topsoil on the deck but i would have bacteria colonized and going when i got to the point of setting up my tanks?

just my rambling thoughts

jeremy

[AaronT]

Originally Posted by oregonaqua

just to chime in.

my wife is mad enough with me having the dirt on the deck outside. if she came home and i had dirt baking in the oven she would shove me in with it. that makes this method well worth the time and effort.


one question i have. if i did bake it then added the sand when i set the tank up wouldn't it be 0 bacteria? except maybe whats in my filter? i would have to wait to cycle the tanks?

as a pose to the longer set up with the topsoil on the deck but i would have bacteria colonized and going when i got to the point of setting up my tanks?

just my rambling thoughts

jeremy

I hear you on that one Jeremy. I can see my wife now, "What you are cooking in the pot there?"

Actually, Tom is right that it will still take a while for the bacteria to get established once the soil is in the tank, usually about 4-5 weeks for it to be really stable.

The benefit of not boiling them or baking them off is that they mineralize the organics. The mineralized organics are much more bio-available to the plant's roots. The baked / boiled organics are just toasted organics that aren't very nutrient rich.

[JDowns]

Started the process today for my major rescape in August. Which should give me enough time also to test in a much smaller tank.

The route I went.

8 45qt tubs.

75 pounds of ZeoSand
2 cuft Worm Castings
2 cuft Organic Topping Soil
50 pounds SMS - not yet mixed since Lesco is not open on Saturdays

I really like the texture so far with the ZeoSand. Very sticky and airy. I can see when this is all done its going to be nice to plant in, and create the slopes I want.

[hooha]

When making a slope, is it better to add more soil underneath and keep about the same amount of topping material, or would you keep an even layer of soil and build up the topping material to make a slope? If the former is done, does that increase the risk of anaerobic pockets?

[JDowns]

I've always done the bottom layer to create the slopes. Then an even top layer covering everything.

I can see the second method being a problem. If you used your topping material to create the slopes. It would take longer for the roots to reach a nutrient rich layer.

You would have to create the conditions to support aenerobic pockets though.

Here is a good discussion on what you are inquiring.

PlantGeek :: View topic - anaerobic pockets and deep gravel?

[AaronT]

I would use the top layer to create a slope. No matter which layer you use to create the slope, over time the layers will all even out. The soil being the finer granule will always settle to the bottom. I would be careful letting the soil layer getting much deeper than 1" or so. If you use the top layer to create the slope and things settle out over time you will always be able to rake it back to the original slope more easily.

The roots will reach the soil eventually. In the case of stems plants one can simply plant them deeper.

[JDowns]

I definatly would not recommend doing this indoors. Just dumped on a tarp the 8 tubs, and it reaks. The arizona sun should definatly speed up the drying process.

[JDowns]

Originally Posted by AaronT

I would use the top layer to create a slope. No matter which layer you use to create the slope, over time the layers will all even out. The soil being the finer granule will always settle to the bottom. I would be careful letting the soil layer getting much deeper than 1" or so. If you use the top layer to create the slope and things settle out over time you will always be able to rake it back to the original slope more easily.

The roots will reach the soil eventually. In the case of stems plants one can simply plant them deeper.

I'll have to get creative then. Since I'm planning the next layout to be predominatly ground cover.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by AaronT

I have to disagree Tom, they're not the same. A mineralized soil is much more rich in bio-available nutrients than a boiled or baked soil. It is worth the extra time and effort.

Boiling and baking the soil doesn't break down the organics in the soil into anything usable. It only serves to remove the free ammonia.

"Oxidation" does not merely free NH4. It oxidizes far more than just the NH4. What do you think bacteria do to the sediments when they mineralize soil?

Oxidation........ if... they have enough O2 available(which is what is suggested here). Read up on aquatic sediment biogeochemistry if you do not believe me.

You still have to wait a few weeks and by then the cooked sediments have become colonized with bacteria specific to submersed sediments.

The end result is still the same.
You still have an oxidized sediment with bacteria(these can be added in the form of mulm etc). I think some seem to think that bacteria in their garden soil or whatever soil they pick are somehow "best", but those die for the most part and are recolonized by aquatic bacterial communities, generally ones that can handle very low O2, low redox values.

So mineralization is the end result in either case and the "bioavailability" is driven by bacteria in either case. Just saying things do not make them so.

It's just you can get started faster and without the wait.
As far examples of the Cooking sediment method:

2003 AGA International Aquascaping Contest

Seems to work pretty good to me.
Erik and a few other folks tried it out here as well.
Folks asked me how/why and I mentioned the same thing I have here about Vladimir Simoes' Method.

You are welcomed to disagree all day long, but that does not mean you are correct. Question is, have you done both methods?
Have you measured the nutrient content?

I have.
I'll even do another in a few weeks.
I have some sediment analysis for the delta sediments to do and can squeeze a "few extras" in the lab line up. Then we can compare.
The other issue is what is bioavailable? Which nutrients? I measure N, P and Fe as far as nutrients. Then you can take tissue dry weight samples and see if it make a difference in the tissues of the plants and also see abpout the RGR's for the their total dry weight.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[AaronT]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

"Oxidation" does not merely free NH4. It oxidizes far more than just the NH4. What do you think bacteria do to the sediments when they mineralize soil?

Oxidation........ if... they have enough O2 available(which is what is suggested here). Read up on aquatic sediment biogeochemistry if you do not believe me.

We agree on that part Tom. That is the reason for the drying phase of the soil mineralization. To expose the moist soil to ample amounts of oxygen.

If I'm reading what you are saying correctly you are suggesting that the soil will mineralize in the aquarium once the aquatic bacteria colonize the substrate. That is true, but doesn't it take a lot longer to mineralize in that fashion as it's harder to oxidize the substrate once submersed? That to me warrants a few weeks of drying time outside to speed up the process.

[oregonaqua]

o.k. i have a question. what about if during the soaking process and drying process mulm was added to the soil? would that be a benefit? i have been adding it from my filter on the days that i spread it out on tarp just to see if it helps.

although my drying process is having some trouble because it keeps raining. we have had three days of sun since i started this and the rest overcast and raining. lol my soil is always wet and exposed to the air!

[AaronT]

I'm not sure if that would help or not. Probably the biggest way the mulm could help is if you added it to the soil while it is still wet and being added to the aquarium.

[JDowns]

I don't think adding mulm would be of benefit. I think Tom is inferring to add the mulm to the base at startup to kick start the biological process in the sediment, by adding established bacteria.