Aquascaping World Forum - View Single Post - Do you use Power Sand together with Aqua Soil?

plantbrain · 11-12-2008, 12:45 PM

Hi Stan,

So essentially your argument is that you should not worry and just scape?
That is what I read above. Correct me if that was wrong.

The topic/poll is about whether or not you/we use the PS and AS together, not whether either of the methods work, obviously they do which proves my point in the very first place

The question becomes, "does adding PS have any real effect on growth, whether it's stems or roots". If you only have one tank, you cannot say anything statistically. You can break the tank down and redo it and call that a replication and try a treatment. Are you willing to do that? Not likely.

That's why I used several small tanks and applied what I learned there to large tanks. So did others .....and no one has seen any differences with and without near as any one can tell nor I can. I have quite a few folks in my area with ADA full set ups. So I can compare things.

I'm happy you like the results, that's groovy, tank looks nice etc, but you cannot say anything about the question of the topic. All you can say is that ADA AS+PS works for you and nothing more based on your results.

I, however, can.
Other folks have been doing it without PS with the same results.
So if we both get the same types of results...............are there any significant differences? You said there are many paths to Rome, so I guess you are saying that both work, so why bother adding PS then? What is it that you gain from adding it? How can you say without testing both cases?

This is not about scaping, this about common sense and whether or not you have tried both treatments.

Aquarists should not have a pre drawn conclusion, then go about trying to support the argument with semantics or tangents. By trying it and testing something, it need not be at a lab etc, a simple test ........Then..... you can draw the conclusion based on the results. You and most folks here seem to only have 1/2 the results. So how can you conclude about ADA As alone? Many assume ADA is 100% correct in all their marketing claims and all their products are required for success.

This is quite counter to what myself and other folks have found.
This was examplified yet again when I tested and measured the ADA lights at Aqua Forest. The light was quite low compared to similar light fixtures of the same wattage and bulb types(2-3x less) and this was with 6 aquariums and at different locations within each tank using PAR rather than Watt/gal or lumens or other poor plant growth light measures.

The mulm is given from a LFS, I doubt they'd get much $ for it

Many aquarists have friends in the hobby if they only have one tank, the roots of plants are also loaded with bacteria, most LFS will give you some mulm from a filter etc, lots cheaper than PS. Emergent plant roots are still in a saturated condition and need little adaptation, they will regrow new roots quickly after replanting, just like trimming plants on a weekly basis.
No different. Adding O2 requires diffusion and plants have these already established in their new roots, it's called "aerenchyma". This is why the entire notion of O2 and circulation to the root zone to help the plants grow is baloney. Tropica did not find this to be the case, nor did Ole or Troels. I've spent a lot of time growing aquatic species on quite a few different sediments in huge numbers at the lab here. This stuff is pure clay mud, much like ADA. I've added pots of PS and ADA AS to play with, never saw any differences with a dozen or so species.

All aquatic plants have this anatomy, it is a defining characteristic of aquatic wetland species roots. New or old roots, does not matter, they all have it and that is how they get O2 to the roots in a wide range of sediments in natural and artificial systems. The results from aquarists as well as research and what is known about aquatic plant roots also support this conclusion.
New root tips have very high respiration rates and the flow of O2 is important, but that's not being supplied exogenously, it's endogenous within the plant itself as it grows.
That's the part the PS and heat cable folks seem to miss.

If you take this a step farther in time, as plant roots fill in in either system(w or w/o PS), the root mass really starts to define the system, not PS or cables due to the massive network of roots and O2 addition.
Far more than anything cables or PS will achieve by themselves. If you remove these plant roots and replant, using PS, you should see better response and little negative algae responses, poor water quality etc.
However, that is not the case.

You have the same results in both cases.
So it seems that the roots, not the PS, are the real factor. Even in established mature systems.
This also supports what I've stated.

Regards,
Tom Barr

11-12-2008, 12:45 PM	#34 (permalink)
plantbrain Senior Aquascaper Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: California, USA Posts: 107	Hi Stan, So essentially your argument is that you should not worry and just scape? That is what I read above. Correct me if that was wrong. The topic/poll is about whether or not you/we use the PS and AS together, not whether either of the methods work, obviously they do which proves my point in the very first place The question becomes, "does adding PS have any real effect on growth, whether it's stems or roots". If you only have one tank, you cannot say anything statistically. You can break the tank down and redo it and call that a replication and try a treatment. Are you willing to do that? Not likely. That's why I used several small tanks and applied what I learned there to large tanks. So did others .....and no one has seen any differences with and without near as any one can tell nor I can. I have quite a few folks in my area with ADA full set ups. So I can compare things. I'm happy you like the results, that's groovy, tank looks nice etc, but you cannot say anything about the question of the topic. All you can say is that ADA AS+PS works for you and nothing more based on your results. I, however, can. Other folks have been doing it without PS with the same results. So if we both get the same types of results...............are there any significant differences? You said there are many paths to Rome, so I guess you are saying that both work, so why bother adding PS then? What is it that you gain from adding it? How can you say without testing both cases? This is not about scaping, this about common sense and whether or not you have tried both treatments. Aquarists should not have a pre drawn conclusion, then go about trying to support the argument with semantics or tangents. By trying it and testing something, it need not be at a lab etc, a simple test ........Then..... you can draw the conclusion based on the results. You and most folks here seem to only have 1/2 the results. So how can you conclude about ADA As alone? Many assume ADA is 100% correct in all their marketing claims and all their products are required for success. This is quite counter to what myself and other folks have found. This was examplified yet again when I tested and measured the ADA lights at Aqua Forest. The light was quite low compared to similar light fixtures of the same wattage and bulb types(2-3x less) and this was with 6 aquariums and at different locations within each tank using PAR rather than Watt/gal or lumens or other poor plant growth light measures. The mulm is given from a LFS, I doubt they'd get much $ for it Many aquarists have friends in the hobby if they only have one tank, the roots of plants are also loaded with bacteria, most LFS will give you some mulm from a filter etc, lots cheaper than PS. Emergent plant roots are still in a saturated condition and need little adaptation, they will regrow new roots quickly after replanting, just like trimming plants on a weekly basis. No different. Adding O2 requires diffusion and plants have these already established in their new roots, it's called "aerenchyma". This is why the entire notion of O2 and circulation to the root zone to help the plants grow is baloney. Tropica did not find this to be the case, nor did Ole or Troels. I've spent a lot of time growing aquatic species on quite a few different sediments in huge numbers at the lab here. This stuff is pure clay mud, much like ADA. I've added pots of PS and ADA AS to play with, never saw any differences with a dozen or so species. All aquatic plants have this anatomy, it is a defining characteristic of aquatic wetland species roots. New or old roots, does not matter, they all have it and that is how they get O2 to the roots in a wide range of sediments in natural and artificial systems. The results from aquarists as well as research and what is known about aquatic plant roots also support this conclusion. New root tips have very high respiration rates and the flow of O2 is important, but that's not being supplied exogenously, it's endogenous within the plant itself as it grows. That's the part the PS and heat cable folks seem to miss. If you take this a step farther in time, as plant roots fill in in either system(w or w/o PS), the root mass really starts to define the system, not PS or cables due to the massive network of roots and O2 addition. Far more than anything cables or PS will achieve by themselves. If you remove these plant roots and replant, using PS, you should see better response and little negative algae responses, poor water quality etc. However, that is not the case. You have the same results in both cases. So it seems that the roots, not the PS, are the real factor. Even in established mature systems. This also supports what I've stated. Regards, Tom Barr Last edited by plantbrain; 11-12-2008 at 01:06 PM.